chillpot Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 Hi, i used to work as a clapper loader before becoming a dp and on a shoot once the dp used a stills camera with a polaroid back to look at the contrast ratio before shooting. does anyone have any information about how useful this can be and what kind of equipment and stock might be appropriate to work with. is there a specific polaroid stock that might react similar to motion picture stocks? any info would be greatly appreciated. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Kevin Zanit Posted June 26, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted June 26, 2004 I have used them before to check contrast (its good late in the day when your eyes are tired). The problem is, its reversal film. It has less latitude, and is higher contrast that most negative film. Thus it's usefulness as an exposure aid is limited. I try to use b&w film, with a speed thats close to the movie film I am using. I forget the name of the camera, but it is an old MANUAL Polaroid camera that has been converted to take modern film. On my light meter I have two ISO settings, so I set one to my movie film, and the other to the Polaroid film. Kevin Zanit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Wendell_Greene Posted June 26, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted June 26, 2004 I forget the name of the camera, but it is an old MANUAL Polaroid camera that has been converted to take modern film. Most likely the Polaroid 110A camera. There is a company by the name of " Four Designs" that does conversions on various models of Polaroid cameras so they can take pack film; like the Polaroid 667 B&W film, Kevin mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillpot Posted June 27, 2004 Author Share Posted June 27, 2004 cheers for that will look into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarin Blaschke Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 My experience is that Polaroid film is much too contrasty to really judge lighting ratios. Even notably harder than typical reversal stock, I'd say. I'd use it for exposure checking only. However, Fujiroid color instant film comes a bit closer. Too bad it's daylight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted June 28, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted June 28, 2004 Hi, At least you know if it's in on the polaroid, it'll be in on the neg. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tony Brown Posted June 29, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted June 29, 2004 I used to use a Polaroid 600SE with 667 stock. The stocks now are so different in there lattitudes that 667 is now useless. It can be a pain (remember when video assist started up - same thing), the director would want a look at it - then show it to the Agency.... I really wouldn't bother, at best you'll worry someone if not yourself. I sold mine recently on E Bay for nearly £400, best thing I ever did. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Alessandro Machi Posted June 30, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted June 30, 2004 Hi, At least you know if it's in on the polaroid, it'll be in on the neg. Phil That's exactly the point. My website has a page devoted to the Polaroid camera that Four Designs company converts to take modern film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tony Brown Posted June 30, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted June 30, 2004 Hi, At least you know if it's in on the polaroid, it'll be in on the neg. Phil I'm not sure I'd be too comfortable employing somebody who is using this tool to see if "it'll be in on the neg." It was intended to be a little more fine tuning than that!! Might I suggest your eyes and a light meter? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted June 30, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted June 30, 2004 Hi, Well I could buy a light meter, but unfortunately my eyes are not calibrated in T stops. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tony Brown Posted June 30, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted June 30, 2004 Hi, Well I could buy a light meter, but unfortunately my eyes are not calibrated in T stops. Phil Buy a meter Phil and they soon will be -I promise. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Alessandro Machi Posted June 30, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted June 30, 2004 Hi, At least you know if it's in on the polaroid, it'll be in on the neg. Phil I'm not sure I'd be too comfortable employing somebody who is using this tool to see if "it'll be in on the neg." It was intended to be a little more fine tuning than that!! Might I suggest your eyes and a light meter? :D The Polaroid serves many useful purposes. It allows for others involved in the creation of the scene to get an understanding of what is going on and what might need to be changed. I've seen make up people look at the polaroid and readust an actors make up as a result. In addition to determining what will be on the negative, the actual contrast of objects is presented on the polaroid, however, the bonus is the negative will have a range that can be made to either match what is on the polaroid or give significantly improved contrast values if that is desired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Yolles Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 The Polaroid is just another tool to use if you wish. If used, it should be treated just like a light meter. To quote many people on this board - "don't be a slave to the light meter." You take your reading and just because the meter says five six doesn't necessarily mean you set the lens at 5.6. You take what the tool says and you make judgments based off of it. Likewise with the Polaroid; you make judgments from whatever it is that you personally see on the picture; and that could be different for different people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member John Pytlak RIP Posted June 30, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted June 30, 2004 New Kodak tools on the way soon with the Kodak "Look Management" System: http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/...merimageP.shtml Robert Mayson, Kodak's vice president and general manager of image capture, also informed festival attendees about the Kodak Look Management System, a tool for cinematographers that uses computer technology to aid in previsuali-zation and enhance communication with collaborators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tony Brown Posted July 6, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted July 6, 2004 You are correct Nate - and that is a big problem with the Polaroid. Do we light the set by committee? Do we take a Polaroid and then have pointless discussions about this shadow that highlight.... lets ask the craft service girl if she thinks the backlight is over the top.... because that?s where it ends up. Its taken some people 20 years to understand what?s on the video assist is nothing to do with what ends up on the neg. The meter is a tool for YOU to use and decipher the results, the Polaroid offers the opportunity for all and their dogs to voice opinion at a time when shooting and moving on may be more appropriate. Call me old fashioned.... Beware those with a little bit of knowledge and a big opinion. Beware those eleven people gazing over your shoulder at YOUR Polaroid!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Yolles Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 I'm sure you have no problem telling people to get away from your eyepiece. Tell them to get away from your polaroid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Tanner Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 I'll have to agree with Tony. Polaroids add a whole lot more questions to a set than answers. And I can't see the benefit of walking over to the client and saying "look at this polaroid. But ignore the highlights, they won't be that blown out... and the shadows will be a bit richer...and the framing is not quite accurate...etc." I can't find a worthwhile reason to use polaroids. They don't convey any useful information to me about what is exposed on the negative. I'm not saying that polaroids don't help other DP's, they just don't help me. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tony Brown Posted July 7, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted July 7, 2004 What was the Ploaroid stock that gave you a neg as well, anyone remember that one? I had some beautiful prints done by the stills lab at Pinewood from a shoot once, can't beat a big neg. Makes you realize how bad 35mm is considering the size of the pojected end product.......Amazing a 50mm system was never developed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Alessandro Machi Posted July 7, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted July 7, 2004 You are correct Nate - and that is a big problem with the Polaroid. Do we light the set by committee? Do we take a Polaroid and then have pointless discussions about this shadow that highlight.... lets ask the craft service girl if she thinks the backlight is over the top.... because that?s where it ends up. Its taken some people 20 years to understand what?s on the video assist is nothing to do with what ends up on the neg. The meter is a tool for YOU to use and decipher the results, the Polaroid offers the opportunity for all and their dogs to voice opinion at a time when shooting and moving on may be more appropriate. Call me old fashioned.... Beware those with a little bit of knowledge and a big opinion. Beware those eleven people gazing over your shoulder at YOUR Polaroid!! Nate never said that. No one said you go from person to person asking their opinion about a polaroid. I'd show the picture to the crafts service person if their table was unwittingly in the shot. If the make-up person saw the polaroid, it's because they want to see how the actors face looks, and this is assuming you want the make-up person to see the polaroid. I would say one big downside to a polaroid is that it takes at least a minute to properly "develop" it. So I wouldn't recommend snapping polaroids all day long. Another downside is the pictures can be "leaked" to media and perhaps that causes some other unplanned crises. As for who gets to see the polaroid, compared to an HD monitor it's small potatoes. If you are this against a polaroid, I cannot begin to imagine how much you would be against having an HD monitor on set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Alessandro Machi Posted July 7, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted July 7, 2004 I'll have to agree with Tony. Polaroids add a whole lot more questions to a set than answers. And I can't see the benefit of walking over to the client and saying "look at this polaroid. But ignore the highlights, they won't be that blown out... and the shadows will be a bit richer...and the framing is not quite accurate...etc." I can't find a worthwhile reason to use polaroids. They don't convey any useful information to me about what is exposed on the negative. I'm not saying that polaroids don't help other DP's, they just don't help me. Jeff Who said the polaroids are for the client to approve? I don't do shoots on the level that you guys do but I wouldn't hand over a polaroid to a client for their approval specifically for the reasons that are being cited. Polaroids are just a form of low cost insurance just in case one wants to make sure they have not made a slight error in their contrast choices. Nowadays, if clients are on the set, isn't the production being done in HD so they can look at the monitor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member John Pytlak RIP Posted July 7, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted July 7, 2004 Amazing a 50mm system was never developed IMHO, 65mm/70mm still has a place for "big" pictures on a big screen: http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/...lak/dec98.shtml http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/...k/march99.shtml No 50mm system, but CinemaScope 55 was used for "Carousel" and "The King and I". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Tanner Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 "Polaroids are just a form of low cost insurance just in case one wants to make sure they have not made a slight error in their contrast choices." That is exactly why I don't understand using polaroids. How can you judge contrast on a motion picture negative by looking at a polaroid. They are 2 different animals. The contrast ratio on a polaroid is nothing like the contrast ratio on a negative. And what happens if you're shooting interiors on 5218 and then switch to 5248 for exteriors. Those 2 negatives are very different, are there corresponding polaroid choices for each motion picture stock? Why not just look through the viewfinder and use your meters? "Nowadays, if clients are on the set, isn't the production being done in HD so they can look at the monitor?" Not in my world. I shoot film (35 and 16) much more often than HD. Probably 100:1 And that's one of the reasons that I love film. Ad agency types can't chime in about color, exposure, highlights, shadows or anything else when they are watching a video tap. Give them an HD monitor and all of a sudden the most Jr. art director is a cinematography expert. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Alessandro Machi Posted July 7, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted July 7, 2004 The point that was made several posts ago that if it's on the polaroid it will be on the negative is a very salient point in the world of lower budgeted productions that may be limited on the amount of lights or the type of lights that are available, or where the lights can be placed. Lower budgeted film shoots might need to get away with using less lights because of limited personnel or limited lighting packages, and they may take risks that are not normally taken on a bigger budgeted production. Lower budget shoots would definitely benefit from polaroids. Higher budget shoots have more people power available to cross the t's and dot the I's. I see your point about higher budgeted shoots scorning the use of Polaroids. A higher budgeted production may have an experienced hair and make up person that knows to stay away from jet black hair color, that knows how to just ever so subtley add highlights that allows dark hair to read better. On a lower budgeted shoot, hair that probably isn't getting the same treatment as it would get on a higher budgeted production can be evaluated via a polaroid to give an initial indication as to how balanced the hair is to the rest of the scene. I would say that on higher budgeted shoots Polaroids are probably not necessary but that polaroids are an excellent resource on lower budgeted shoots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tony Brown Posted July 7, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted July 7, 2004 I know Nate never said you go from person to person asking their opinion, thats exactly my point. Once you take a Polaroid it becomes a focus of interest. Its a tangible impression of the image that until that point has been has been a somewhat ethereal notion in peoples heads. If the Director says "Can I have a look?" are you going to get arsey and say no? Maybe you leave it on the back of the dolly, distracted for a moment, suddenly the gaffer takes a look, I've seen people walk over to the trash at the craft table and take them out to have a look. Etiquette is sadly not what it once was. Even if you invite the client/agency creatives to look through the camera, most times they don't even press against the eyepiece hard enough to see the frame, and they say "great, looks lovely" regardless of whether they have seen the frame or not. The Polaroid however is different; they can cope with sitting with the rest of the armchair army thumbing an actual image. If you covert the Polaroid like some secretive mystical thing you look like some kind of nut and make the desire to see the bloody thing all the greater. Each to his own. For my money they tell me nothing, but they tell everyone else too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Yolles Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 I don't think the budget of the show has anything to do with the use of Polaroids. It's about whether you as a DP get any benefit from looking at them. Bottom line, nothing more, nothing less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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