First Outdoor Framegrab

[Arni Heimir]

As Max says this gives no indication of highlight handling and thats it, flat lighting demonstrates nothing more than studio. plus is it just me or does anyone else feel a small lump of vomit move up their windpipe everytime they go on that site... "that lens might be okay, but it will never measure up to the cheaper, lighter and optically superior red lens", "every production needs a 300mm lens, but no one realised it before Jim gave us this fantastic opertunity", "thanks Jim, your gorgeous", "please Jim I promise I'll swallow" etc...

 

Who uses 300mm lenses?

[jan von krogh]

And low and behold the mesiah spoke. to paraphrase "he's not the mesiah he's a very nice billionaire".

i don´t have religious or spiritual feelings about movieproduction, do you?

 

look this is insane do you not have a questioning bone in your body?

my main question are:

0A) how good will the images be (what i have seen at ibc on the 4k showing and in the web is convincing so far)

1) when do we get delivery of our 2 orders.

2) will the designgoals be reached

3) how will this affect the cinealta&35mm production & rental space in which my company is working in

then many pratical question which rather regard my company, not red, as:

does it make sense to convert the 16mm glass. will i switch some 2007 productions to red or rather earn by renting out. how fast will our dedicated redcineworkstations have to be. will many customers go 4k or will they stay 2k downconvert. do i need to buy more 35mm lenses etc.pp

 

your need to back up the gaping wholes in your knowledge with technical name dropping borders on the rediculous.

sir, no need to get insulting. maybe you should take a deep breath and get rid of these aggressions and reflect what is frustrating you in real life that you get rude in internetforums.

so, to dive a little bit into my "gaps of knowledge", let me educate a little bit.

and you confirmed what exactly with your tektronix whatever and your class 1 709???

1st) people supposed that the milk area clipped.

the 709 class 1 shows details there.

the tektronix wave/vector (i suppose you are familar with 709 measurement) shows different levels there as well. Clipped images are called clipped as they do not show level but... clip :) on a vector/wave btw. not on a noncalibrated computerdisplay.

2nd) Amount of noise/grain. Easy to measure on any constant area. By enlarging the wavedisplay of the measuring gear, noise and grain shows up as patterns of different levels on constant areas (front of the bus etc) even if below visibility. Be it 35mm, hdcam or whatever. The image of the red is pretty noisefree, as i mentioned, even better than typical midrange cinealta/35mm noise/grain. What is becoming visible on the wave btw is the quantisation rounding errors - i suppose they base on the jepg image, but that is somethin you can´t measure as this could originate in sensor, debayer pattern logic, redcine in addition to the jpeg.

 

"comparing this shot to the results of our arri 35 and sony cinealta" what are you on about? how on earth can you conceveibly compare three completely different systems without a side by side shoot out.

In the movieproductionuniverse i live in people are able to see & measure absence of noise&grain even with one camera. furthermore, by estimating the average size of human beings and autobusses one can tell that the DOV is indeed more shallow than on s16 or 2/3 chips, so the sensor seems to be rather 35. again, no need to have 3 cameras to confirm such easy findings necessary.

 

I tell you what i put the image through my mark twelve quantel flux neutron capacitor and it told me the jpeg looked like something i shot with my D5 when i was attended last years 'ooh saucy one, are those really milk jugs?' convention...

i think you are really a little bit excited/emotional. this is supposed to be funny, right? the aggressive tone of certain members make discussion here quite unenjoyable.

[freddie bonfanti]

well,

 

the frame grab looks good, but its roughly the same look of any good 35MM video adapters. also, i would need to watch a picture with movement and see how the camera handles it. i must say im not really impressed just now but i hope im wrong

[Phil Rhodes]

So it is the stated position of Red that this is not clipping?

 

 

You have upset me now; you have made me take extra time to refute an obvious falsehood. Look, I said you were fine, OK? But you had to claim you're exceptional, and you're not.

 

Phil

[jan von krogh]

First conclusion: You don't understanding that a sensor's lattitude and the representation of different densities of grey on a computer screen are two different things.

that might be the explanation why i at once loaded it in the calibrated 2k di and 709 pipeline. possibly to see it on the class 1 and measure it on the vectorwave?

 

We could be looking at a 9 stop tonal range from white to black or a 4 stop range and we'd never know.

4 stop range daylight. aha. i suppose you are polemic, correct?

 

Observation: You are eager to condescend to someone who makes a legit point for the sake of marketing, which leads me to the . . .

Third conclusion: You are working for Karl Rove.

having spend my younger years in france and now working and living in berlin, i can cleary say that we have pity with people like karl rove and many people on this side of the pond don´t understand why figures like him are in power in the usa.

 

Vector scope and wave form info would be nice as well, then we would know if those highlights are actually blown out or not and we would know the tonal range of the exposure in terms of lighting values. That sort of thing might actually be helpfull.

if you ask gently i will post them. :)

[Phil Rhodes]

> if you ask gently i will post them

 

I just did.

 

-P

[Max Jacoby]

Thanks Phil.

[jan von krogh]

So it is the stated position of Red that this is not clipping?

 

 

You have upset me now; you have made me take extra time to refute an obvious falsehood. Look, I said you were fine, OK? But you had to claim you're exceptional, and you're not.

 

Phil

 

i don´t know what kind of waveform you are showing there. however, here is a vector, wave, rgb parade and gamut one.

 

-note- clipped white shows as full lines at 255, not details below at 235-255.

 

furthermore please have a look at dvxuser.com. there are come cced images which show the detail in the whites.

[Phil Rhodes]

Yes, it's clipped in the blue and green.

 

Phil

[David Sweetman]

Well I think if they still aren't giving out info such as f/stop and specific readings, it's only because they don't want us to have it, at least not yet, same with not showing us high-contrast stuff. The problem with showing anything is it seems as if they're ready to show everything, and when they don't, people ask questions.

 

I feel the same way about dvxuser, man I just couldn't get through an entire thread. I guess I like the critical approach because it presents conflict.

 

Plus I just read a post over there by some guy who somehow scraped together 1k and got his reservation, and has no idea where the other 16k will come from, and who I'm sure has no PL mount lenses, and probably has no idea what he'll use the camera for. Let alone how he'll edit the footage.

[jan von krogh]

Well I think if they still aren't giving out info such as f/stop and specific readings, it's only because they don't want us to have it, at least not yet, same with not showing us high-contrast stuff.

this is only personal speculation, correct?

 

The problem with showing anything is it seems as if they're ready to show everything, and when they don't, people ask questions.

I rather think that a problem of this particular forum here is that, meanwhile for some people the glass may be half full or empty, many poster here rather behave as the glass would be broken.

 

I feel the same way about dvxuser, man I just couldn't get through an entire thread. I guess I like the critical approach because it presents conflict.

i hardly find professional critical approaches here. personal attacks and hostile manners however are quite popular. sadly, this made this forum 3hrd class for the red camera, as it already has alienated many buyers and the developers of the camera who won´t post here anymore.

 

Plus I just read a post over there by some guy who somehow scraped together 1k and got his reservation, and has no idea where the other 16k will come from, and who I'm sure has no PL mount lenses, and probably has no idea what he'll use the camera for. Let alone how he'll edit the footage.

yes, the buyers sociology span from topend rentalhouses like ludwig, otto nemenz, postproduction studios over seasoned DOPs & directors, production corps, engaged semipros to individuals, collectors, broadcasters, heck even students who plan to rent it out to their university.

 

the ~700-800 reds so far will -if red will deliver- shake up rental business quite a bit. i expect heavy demand upcoming for our 35mm lenses and 2k/4k DI, however i suppose our arri 35mm will not fade out of demand in 2007.

 

i suppose that many of the younger and not so rich buyers will go photolenses... and maybe some won´t be able to collect enough money and sell theirs. from now on reservations are closed. RED employees saif that they would open for orders again ~april (NAB?). I hope that they have a year worth of backlog - that would give our two REDs a good year to pay for themself.

[Graeme Nattress]

There's a 2k rez version up on the RED site now.

 

http://red.com/images/gallery/still_5-downsize-for-web.jpg

 

Graeme

[Gavin Greenwalt]

A couple of personal observations.

 

1) Blue is definitely clipping, but I would like to see the 12bit version. Personally I'm suprised when an 8bit image doesn't clip. So I don't think that helps or hurts my analysis of the image.

 

2) I'm looking at where it's clipping and I'm not seeing any notable "video" chroma shift as it fails to white. It's not failing as gracefully as film, but it's doing a pretty good job.

 

3) It's pretty. Would anybody here be unhappy with this picture quality? Can we all agree it looks very nice. If only 600 people on earth were unhappy with an image's quality and could find problems I would rejoice and be merry.

 

It looks "good enough" for the general public to be tricked into thinking it's the best there is. Just think of DVXuser as a mildly critical audience member. I would say it passed that test. ;)

 

If I had the option between DVCpro and this instead of this and 35mm I would probably black out.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> 1) Blue is definitely clipping, but I would like to see the 12bit version.

 

We have been screaming at them for the uncompressed images for months. If they don't like judgement being passed on their JPEGs, they know what they need to do.

 

> 2) I'm looking at where it's clipping and I'm not seeing any notable "video" chroma shift as it fails to white.

 

That's because it's not matrixing; you could achieve more apparent dynamic range by doing a colour matrix, but that causes the problem you describe. In this respect it is what we would expect to see.

 

> 3) It's pretty. Would anybody here be unhappy with this picture quality? Can we all agree it looks very

> nice.

 

Under those circumstances it looks entirely reasonable. I'm bored of being messed about by them:

 

Oh, we can't possibly give you the uncompressed frames.

Oh, we can't possibly shoot a colour chart

Oh, we can't possibly shoot a genuinely taxing scene.

 

...well then, prepare to be judged.

 

Phil

[jan von krogh]

Oh, we can't possibly shoot a colour chart

in case you missed that (it seems so) - prototype colorchart has been published ~ 2 months ago. just search on dvxuser.com. as you know, news are no longer shared directly by the devs here.

 

 

Oh, we can't possibly give you the uncompressed frames.

in case you missed that (it seems so) - prototype raw 4k greenscreen footage had been published ~ 1 months ago. just search on dvxuser.com. as you know, news are no longer shared directly by the devs here.

 

but i think the image was only online for some weeks. i have a copy here in the network.

 

Under those circumstances it looks entirely reasonable. I'm bored of being messed about by them:

then i would recommend to stop being bored and leaving the red forum to more interesting ones instead of sharing the bad mood here. or, if you want some solid talk & info about red, visit dvxuser.com as well, there you wouldn´t have missed the uncompressed & colorchart images.

 

...well then, prepare to be judged.

~800 35mm sensor PL-mount cameras sold is really a hard judgement, isn´t it?

[Phil Rhodes]

Oh, I can barely be bothered.

 

> ~800 35mm sensor PL-mount cameras sold is really a hard judgement, isn´t it?

 

And McDonald's still make poop hamburgers. You easily-led, populist moron.

 

Phil

[jan von krogh]

And McDonald's still make poop hamburgers. You easily-led, populist moron.

 

mr. rhodes, i suppose your manners aren´t to sophisticated, and nobody is responsible for a bad education he got, however, could you at least try to behave or pretend to behave like a social being in public?

 

thank you very much.

[Max Jacoby]

then i would recommend to stop being bored and leaving the red forum to more interesting ones instead of sharing the bad mood here.

 

Considering that Phil absolutely knows what is talking about and cuts through the propaganda bullshit I find his posts very informtative.

 

or, if you want some solid talk & info about red, visit dvxuser.com as well, there you wouldn´t have missed the uncompressed & colorchart images.

 

No thanks. The signal to asskissing ratio on that site is entirely to low. But I can understand why the Red people prefer posting over there, having your ego flattered on a daily basis must be pretty satisfying.

 

~800 35mm sensor PL-mount cameras sold is really a hard judgement, isn´t it?

That is the number of preorders, none of these cameras have sold yet and not all of them will.

[Häakon]

Considering that Phil absolutely knows what is talking about and cuts through the propaganda bullshit I find his posts very informtative.

And yet, he still has a need to call people morons. Is the apparently limitless knowledge worthwhile if you're still an a**ho** at the end of the day?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

There was one uncompressed frame. But it's hard to tell anything from because it was shot on a green screen. It was only up for 2 days. The color chart was referenced here on cinematography.com at the same time it was posted on DVXuser. I won't mention names but I believe the comment at the time was something to the effect of 'Those users on DVXuser are shitting themselves over a colorchart.' That was the extent of the discussion of the color chart... not exactly constructive.

 

I can't believe the speed at which debate and conversation on this forum degenerates into personal attacks and mudslinging. If a comment doesn't relate to the technical performance of the RED camera. I for one do not want to hear about it.

 

I don't know what brings out such a level of animosity on both sides of the debate but it's mind boggling. Yes people are very positive on DVXuser.com I'm on DVXuser.com and I'm very positive. Let me outline some of the other topics I'm very positive about:

 

Mudbox, AMD 4 core processors, Zbrush 2.5, "The Shake Replacement", Fusion 5.1, Polyboost 2.5, Facerobot, DirectX10, Touchscreen displays, LED production lights, the SI camera and my current 35mm project I'm working on.

 

I don't know how any of them are going to turn out, but I'm throwing my enthusiasm into them full tilt in the hopes that maybe, just maybe it'll help make it all that I want it to be. I think what we're seeing here is a cultural clash. People who love technology tend to embrace the "next great thing" while people who work in a traditional production environment need their equipment to be production proven. Personally I can't count how many "interesting" new technologies I've used in my work over the years without any assurances. Beta software, community created tools, self programmed hacks and workarounds. I created an entire render pipeline for a project 2 weeks before it was due, because the old system just wasn't going to deliver for the client. But I also respect the need for a strong pipeline which you can depend on under any circumstance.

 

When I see the RED camera, I see potential, and I think a number of other people do too. They might not have as refined or experience of an eye as some of the people here (I know I don't). But they like what they're seeing, and they're excited to get their hands on it because it looks promising. So don't belittle them, don't insult them by saying they're small petty little people. They're not, and I'm willing to include myself in their ranks.

 

I find some of the remarks here: condescending, insulting, elitist and rude.

 

If you have something to say about the RED camera. Say it. If you have something to say about the workflow say it. If you have something to say about the ergonomics say it. I love nothing more than talking shop but let's keep the personal rat fights to a minimum and leave the politics to the politicians. Judge away, I wouldn't expect anything less, I know I'm not planning on holding back on what I see.

 

Responding to personal attacks Tit for Tat does nothing more than perpetuate an endless cycle of retaliation.

Edited November 1, 2006 by Gavin Greenwalt

[Stephen Williams]

~800 35mm sensor PL-mount cameras sold is really a hard judgement, isn´t it?

 

Hi Jan,

 

With all due respect not a single camer has yet been sold, they have been ordered with a refundable deposit.

 

Stephen

[Gary McClurg]

I was going to stay out of the debate until I got a pm...

 

Here's how I look at it... I'm not a dp... I'm a producer moving over to directing... but being a producer I was the one in charge of the budget and if something can give me an image that looks great and matches what appears on the big screen then I'll go for it...

 

I don't care if its some one who reinvents Super 8 so it can be blown up to 35mm and still looks great or a HD camera that can do the same thing...

 

To me your script is your starting point if its sucks it sucks... if its great it can only turn out basically four ways...

 

1. Its great..

2. Its good..

3. Its okay...

4. It sucks...

 

Still your final product has to have good production values.

 

To those who dislike Red please do not send me emails or pm's to keep a month old debate going or to tell me that JJ has imposed a court order on you... just express yourself in a nice manner.... you don't have to mean and try and pick fights...

 

To those who love Red... please be opened minded and if someone has an honest question or believes that the goodies to use on the camera and the post work flow is going to cost a lot more than $25,000 to do 4k... to not attack them like you're in a cult...

 

You know I do think its funny... that once its quiet on many boards about the Red something comes up to keep the debate going... makes you wonder who the marketing guy is so you could hire him to promote you or me... or all of us...

Edited November 1, 2006 by Gary McClurg

[jan von krogh]

Hi Jan,

 

With all due respect not a single camer has yet been sold, they have been ordered with a refundable deposit.

 

Stephen

 

Hello Stephen,

 

yes, you are right, and we can also assume that a small percentage of the corps. and individuals who ordered won´t buy the camera finally, for the most different reasons.

[jan von krogh]

Here's how I look at it... I'm not a dp... I'm a producer moving over to directing... but being a producer I was the one in charge of the budget and if something can give me an image that looks great and matches what appears on the big screen then I'll go for it...

My way was the opposite - moved from animation/camera/direction to production and rental.

 

I don't care if its some one who reinvents Super 8 so it can be blown up to 35mm and still looks great or a HD camera that can do the same thing...

one has to be pragmatic and agnostic. workflow counts, quality counts, cost counts. emotional feelings towards certain manufacturers are secondary.

 

To those who dislike Red please do not send me emails or pm's to keep a month old debate going or to tell me that JJ has imposed a court order on you... just express yourself in a nice manner.... you don't have to mean and try and pick fights...

certain indivduals here are behaving in a manner worth prosecution. i don´t care that much, but one of the most successful entrepreneurs of our time might be indeed interested in his public reception.

 

To those who love Red... please be opened minded and if someone has an honest question or believes that the goodies to use on the camera and the post work flow is going to cost a lot more than $25,000 to do 4k... to not attack them like you're in a cult...

amusing : the red camera itself is the most inexpensive piece of gear in the workflow here. starting with zeiss primeset & angenieux zoom in front of the camera, going over uncompressed discrecorders and HDCAM vtrs, being monitored on class 1 1080p monitors on set to the edit, CC and film/DCI out, every single piece of gear is more expensive than the camera. quite a change in paradigms.

 

however, what i learned when hdcam&sr were introduced here a longtime ago - you have to present your point. many of the nay-sayers are conservative -and- unexperienced with the gear they ramble about. as i plan to get red cameras here in the pipeline, i will qualify speculation as speculation, bias as bias and fact as fact.

 

You know I do think its funny... that once its quiet on many boards about the Red something comes up to keep the debate going... makes you wonder who the marketing guy is so you could hire him to promote you or me... or all of us...

an interesting phenomena. sometimes good new tools are quantum leaping and generate the buzz & their momentum on their own. it was quite similar when discreet logic flame was introduced. the oldschool blackbox-graphics guys were the first ones to cry "fraud!", the more innovative ones looked at it, bought it and moved on.

[Adam White]

To those who dislike Red please do not send me emails or pm's to keep a month old debate going or to tell me that JJ has imposed a court order on you... just express yourself in a nice manner.... you don't have to mean and try and pick fights...

 

To those who love Red... please be opened minded and if someone has an honest question or believes that the goodies to use on the camera and the post work flow is going to cost a lot more than $25,000 to do 4k... to not attack them like you're in a cult...

 

too true. . . The test shot is okay but have the company got DP's to test the systems fully and are there short films out there to watch? Apologies, I would have checked the other threads but they are rather lengthy.

 

surely any new system cant be judged by a snap or two? (again, if theres other stuff out there then I apologise)