BBC Extras

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

The best BBC stuff is the factual/magazine shows, things like Holiday and (although I find them repetitive and tedious) the nature documentaries. These are crews who go out in almost an ENG mode with very little support and backup and produce extremely nice pictures. Feature crews look down their noses at anyone who pulls his own focus, but the level of skill and ability on things like Top Gear is beyond reproach.

 

Drama, though, is deadly.

 

Phil

[Andy_Alderslade]

As for S16 and TV- I'll say it again: the stuff shot on deinterlaced DigiBeta by the Rob Kitzmann's of the world makes the film vs. video argument moot.

 

I completly disagree, I think for the small screen even mediocre proffesionaly shot Super16 looks decent and retains a level of quality that even an uninformed viewer reconises. When Super 16 is shot well, it can look terrific.

 

Yes Rob Kitzmann's work is excellent, I particularly like his work on Green Ring, but still had that or League of Gentlemen been shot on film I can't help feeling it would have looked better.

 

Strangley when you see, Super16, HDcam or DigiBeta on a proffesional monitor there is less pronounced difference in what is percieved as quality, but as soon as you see it on a 'crappy' domestic TV the difference between the formats really stands out.

 

It reminds me of CDUK, occationally I got a glance of the monitor mounted on the crane, it looked beautifully lit and composed - but they also had domestic 40' plasma screens mounted on stands so the studio audience could see what was being shot - there the image looked nothing but mediocre.

 

So I can certainly understand why one would choose to shoot a comedy on a video format but as of yet, video just doesn't seem to perform as well on the small screen on domestic televisions.

[Matthew Buick]

I could name several people around this forum that aren't anywhere near as successful but wipe the floor of these DP's working in TV.

 

Such as?

Edited March 24, 2007 by Matthew Buick

[Daniel Smith]

Such as?

I'm not mentioning any names as it creates controversy about someone else's work who probably doesn't want anything to do with this debate.

 

But it doesn't take much looking to find something that does succeed it.

Edited March 24, 2007 by Daniel Ashley-Smith

[Matthew Buick]

Yes. I see what you mean. :)

[David Bradley]

I would suggest that the BBC's DPs work incredibly well under the circumstances they are provided with. They do have to scrap out a huge amount in a days work and the ever increasing attitude that digital requires less funding, thus less crew, thus less equipment hasn't helped matters at all. Some DPs who are notorious through their work with the beeb like Paul Wheeler BSC are very attentive tradesman who pay great attention to detail particularly through their manipulation of light.

 

Many of the characters I have had the pleasure of meeting at the BBC, ITN, BSKYB and Channel 4 are infact very talented, knowledgeable and professional people. Infact they often have a problem with young, inexperienced, underqualified and frankly abnoxious people who criticise their work when they have no understanding of a real 'working' environment in television.

 

This is not an attack on anyone who thinks they can do better but to my understanding time and money are a limited resource within a very limited British industry, DPs in the UK don't have the resources to compete with US productions so comparitively they may well seem inferior.

 

As for Ravensbourne students, I've worked with several. 'Magic' at ITN (a Lighting Director) is perhaps the most educated man with regards all things TV I've ever met! Ravensbourne is not a special school for genius technicians it is an establishment which hopes to create them so to claim your work is better is a pretty empty statement because not every Ravensbourne graduate will get work, infact I don't know many that do.

 

I've fallen into the trap of thinking 'I could do a better job' on several occassions in TV. For-instance I'm a terrible Jib Operator but despite the fact that I'm far more clued up on optics, colour theory, video engineering etc than the regulars I tend to work within ENG, they still produce far better work than most. To say because you know a bit about the PAL signal doesn't account for years of experience behind a camera... period!

 

TOP GEAR IS THE BEST THING EVER... EVER! And check out the work of Sky sports camera operators, its as if the have precognitive senses. Beautiful Rembrant stlye cinematography isn't always fitting!

[Phil Rhodes]

>people who criticise their work when they have no understanding of a real 'working' environment in television.

 

Yeah. Lovely. But the point is this: it's still poop. At the end of the day, it's poop. Make all the excuses you like, but what the audience sees at the end of the day is utterly dismal, for whatever reason. And a lot of it is, I'm sorry, down to nothing more than hopeless visual conservatism. You don't have to fill every shot to a 2:1 ratio; in fact, it probably takes longer, and uses more gear and people, to do it, notwithstanding lighting a whole room flat and burning off setup after setup, which I've done myself.

 

Whatever's wrong, we have to change it. Less channels so more money per channel, less personality-led staffing, change of faces at the top - whatever. What we're doing at the moment isn't working.

 

I just watched an episode of CSI: New York. It was beautiful. No television series produced in the UK for at least ten years comes even close. There is no defence, can never be any defence to this situation. We're poop.

 

Phil

[David Bradley]

>people who criticise their work when they have no understanding of a real 'working' environment in television.

 

Yeah. Lovely. But the point is this: it's still poop. At the end of the day, it's poop. Make all the excuses you like, but what the audience sees at the end of the day is utterly dismal, for whatever reason. And a lot of it is, I'm sorry, down to nothing more than hopeless visual conservatism. You don't have to fill every shot to a 2:1 ratio; in fact, it probably takes longer, and uses more gear and people, to do it, notwithstanding lighting a whole room flat and burning off setup after setup, which I've done myself.

 

Whatever's wrong, we have to change it. Less channels so more money per channel, less personality-led staffing, change of faces at the top - whatever. What we're doing at the moment isn't working.

 

I just watched an episode of CSI: New York. It was beautiful. No television series produced in the UK for at least ten years comes even close. There is no defence, can never be any defence to this situation. We're poop.

 

Phil

 

yeah, all other arguments aside when it comes to you/me the viewer its never great. Lets do something about it eh Phil? really though where would we get the money lol. I don't know how it is in the states and theres definately no apprenticeship system in the UK but there is some serious elitism in British TV/film. I always made a habit of asking how people got where they are and nine times out of ten it was because they had a mate down in HR.

 

Still pay kudos to British talent its just hardly nurtured or exploited. I often forget that in the scheme of things we (Britain) are relatively insignificant. Even in the 60s Truffaut thought we were worthless fops.

[Daniel Smith]

David, for a start I never said I could do better than a BBC DP. I can't. I said I can do a better job than a lot of ravensbourne students. 1. Because I've seen some of their work and 2. Because a lot of people go there with no real experience or knowledge. I'm hopefully going there, only with 4 years experience.

 

Maybe not the honours degree students, but then again they're in their third year of experience with facilities worth over a million. Equipment I've only studied.

 

And I don't see where age comes into because I'm older than some of their students.

 

To say because you know a bit about the PAL signal doesn't account for years of experience behind a camera... period!

What? These people have had years of experience behind a camera? A few years at ravensbourne actually.

 

I'm not talking about all of the people that work in TV I'm talking about the people who I know that work in TV.

 

Infact they often have a problem with young, inexperienced, underqualified and frankly abnoxious people who criticise their work when they have no understanding of a real 'working' environment in television.

Well if they want to channel their hatred into anyone under 30 then that's fine by me. But when I reach their age, I won't.

Edited March 25, 2007 by Daniel Ashley-Smith

[Alessandro Machi]

I just tuned into "Extras", a BBC comedy program (for those who don't know).

 

There was this scene that was supposed to be part of some flashy hollywood movie, with this sickly video promist over it, it didn't even look remotely like film. Infact, if my DCR IP220 started behaving like that I'd throw it away. When the program cut to a behind the scenes look they had the cheek to put a 16mm Arriflex in place of whatever piece of crap filmed the actual scenes.

 

Why not just use the real deal, instead of somebody's friggin' mobile?

 

I don't think I have any faith in the BBC any more. What the hell is going on?????

 

-Matthew Buick.

 

The funniest half hour of television I've seen of any television show ever was the Extra's "

Bafta awards" episode. The whole dang episode just built upon itself until by the end, I found myself reliving the whole episode and the absolute loserville entourage that our hero is king of.

[David Bradley]

WOW! Sorry if I offended you there Dan but I wasn't refering to you in that statement nor did I wish to imply that you think you can do better. Infact that was sort of self referential in that I'm a cocky guy at the best of times and I've often assumed that some of my collegues know less about there trade than I do... and I'm still a student! The fact is that they are very skilled technicians, I haven't met anyone in a technical role who was incompetant because it would show and they would be ruthlesly replaced.

 

I have no problem with Ravensbourne but I find there tends to be an attitude amongst students hoping to attend (and this is true for many other institutions) that if you graduate your guarenteed a job in the industry. I'm not saying thats yours or anyone elses attitude specifically but I'm sure you'll agree that its not true.

 

My gripe with slandering British TV and film is this - its not the lack of talent but a lack of will and efficiency on the part of our organisations who produce our media. All are competing in a fierce and frankly tiny market. BBC dp's, camera operators, sound techs etc may not produce stunning HBO quality dramas but compare the budget between a series of the Sopranos and Life on Mars!

 

As for the hating anyone under 30 thing, I would tend to agree. I'm going to grow a beard and dye my hair grey - that should get me some respect! I find the whole anti youth thing endearing really, its a coming of age thing that I've encountered anywhere I've worked particularly on a building site.

[Guest Tim Partridge]

I just watched an episode of CSI: New York. It was beautiful. No television series produced in the UK for at least ten years comes even close. There is no defence, can never be any defence to this situation.

 

The irony being that the filmmaker credited with CSI's distinct visuals is a Brit: Danny Cannon.

[Alessandro Machi]

I can't stand Ricky Gervais and cannot fathom his popularity. Like Coldplay, Live 8, Stephen Fry and the Labour goverment, he sums up everything deplorably smug and ineffective about Great Britain in the 2000s. Can't wait until this terrible decade (and all of it's excuses for iconism) leaves us.

 

As for S16 and TV- I'll say it again: the stuff shot on deinterlaced DigiBeta by the Rob Kitzmann's of the world makes the film vs. video argument moot.

 

PS Peepshow is the best thing on British TV since Chris Morris.

 

Wow, I think Gervais is a genius. I put him up there with Seinfeld, maybe slightly higher.

 

no, no no no nonnnonoo no no, Nobody says no better than Gervais.

 

Are ya having a laugh eh!