Anamorphic zooms vs. primes

[David Mullen ASC]

I rarely use a 35mm anamorphic, generally just too wide-angle and distorted. The 40mm is sort of the workhorse wide-angle anamorphic lens on most shoots (that's the lens you see on most of Wes Anderson's movies.)

 

Sure, Steven, you can use just two lenses, a 50mm and 75mm anamorphic, but that's your call. It's easier outdoors to be limited to a 50mm for the widest angle because you can always just pull the camera farther back. Plus it's probably easier to light a night exterior if you don't go wider-angle than a 50mm anamorphic.

 

Indoors you may find that a 50mm isn't wide-angle enough for some of your smaller spaces.

[Christian Appelt]

Yeah, 40mm comes closer to what the eye sees (IIRC, John Alonzo said that he tried for CHINATOWN which focal length came closest, he said about 43mm would be correct), but for some applications like shooting inside cars or very narrow stairs and corridors the 35mm has advantages. When I was shooting up high on lighting catwalks of a theatre, I was glad to have the 35mm to cover it all. :)

From what James wrote, I thought he was thinking about buying another Lomo anamorphic lens, and I never heard of a 40mm prime from Russia...

[James Steven Beverly]

That's the thing, Lomo only made a 35mm which are hard as Hell to come by for some damn reason, You would figure every set would have a 35mm so they SHOULD be as common as the others, but they're not. The guy in Russia I bought my 2 anamorphics from said HE'S been looking for one for 3 years. They come in sets but rarely alone. I also wanted to get that and a 100mm. They made everything from 22mm to 1000mm anamorphics but try and find 'em. B)

[James Steven Beverly]

Dave...and anyone else who feels like chiming in, I'm curious what you would do, given the choice between a 11 sphereical primes which includes 3 fast lenses and an MOS camera with an older set of 5 primes or shooting single camera with 2 anamorphics for what I discribed, which way you would go, especially if you're looking to get a theatrical realease.

Edited March 31, 2007 by James Steven Beverly

[David Mullen ASC]

Dave...and anyone else who feels like chiming in, I'm curious what you would do, given the choice between a 11 sphereical primes which includes 3 fast lenses and an MOS camera with an older set of 5 primes or shooting single camera with 2 anamorphics for what I discribed, which way you would go, especially if you're looking to get a theatrical realease.

 

I'd rent, so you're asking the wrong person... is one camera MOS but the camera with only two lenses a sync-sound camera? You should maybe list both packages more clearly for me to offer an opinion.

[James Steven Beverly]

Sure, what I've got are two cameras, one Kinior 35H sound sync camera with a set of Lomo sphereical lenses 18, 25, 35, 50, 75, 100, 200 and 300mm with a second small set, also Lomo, of fast lenses in 35, 50 and 75mm plus a parcial set of Lomo anamorphics in 50 and 75mm. Now if I shoot sphereical I should be able to use my second unit camera which is a (from the 60,s or 70's I believe) MOS Konvas Im 6 vt reostate motored turret model with 5 earlier model "mouse eared" Lomo lenses in 35, 50, 75, 100 and 150mm. These lenses are physically smaller than the newer Lomos but seem to work very well. I also have a pair of 400 ft mags for this camera though I'm not such If it will pull them with the 6 vt motor and can't get a striaght answer on whether it will or not from many of the commie cam guys so I plan to get the camera and mags services and adjusted then just try it and see what happens. The good thing about the Konvas is it's very small for a 35mm camera and tough as Hell so it can take a little banging around. Thanks

[David Mullen ASC]

Only you can decide if you can shoot a whole feature on two focal lengths in anamorphic -- it's certainly doable, it may even look great, but as a director, it's your decision to be limited in this way. I think it would provide a certain clean visual structure & design to the film but the question is if it's the right one for that project.

[James Steven Beverly]

I have to say, I think is is. I wanted this to have a different feel than your average horror flick because it isn't meant to be your average horror flick. It will userp the horror genra into a political statement. A lot of the elements are mediphoric for the problems we face today and the vast emptiness of a waistland, the desert is one of them. There are chaotic moments in the film but having a clean visual structure and design to the project also very much appeals to me. If I were filming a love story or an comedy, I would probably go for the sphereicals without hesitation but I want this one to have an epic feel to it. The oly real argument against it I can see is that a lot of scenes take place at night, but thinking about it, even with that, being surrounded by a vast amount of darkness may be exactly what I'm looking for....Still, I would feel better if I had a 35mm and a 100mm anamorphic, you know, just in case :D .

Edited April 1, 2007 by James Steven Beverly

[Olex Kalynychenko]

Sure, what I've got are two cameras, one Kinior 35H sound sync camera with a set of Lomo sphereical lenses 18, 25, 35, 50, 75, 100, 200 and 300mm with a second small set, also Lomo, of fast lenses in 35, 50 and 75mm plus a parcial set of Lomo anamorphics in 50 and 75mm. Now if I shoot sphereical I should be able to use my second unit camera which is a (from the 60,s or 70's I believe) MOS Konvas Im 6 vt reostate motored turret model with 5 earlier model "mouse eared" Lomo lenses in 35, 50, 75, 100 and 150mm. These lenses are physically smaller than the newer Lomos but seem to work very well. I also have a pair of 400 ft mags for this camera though I'm not such If it will pull them with the 6 vt motor and can't get a striaght answer on whether it will or not from many of the commie cam guys so I plan to get the camera and mags services and adjusted then just try it and see what happens. The good thing about the Konvas is it's very small for a 35mm camera and tough as Hell so it can take a little banging around. Thanks

 

If you repalce of Konvas-1 KSR-1 with rheostat motor ( this is not Konvas-1M ) on Konvas-2M with crystal sych motor, you can use of all your lenses from Kinor-35 H camera with Konvas-2M camera.

Konvas-2M have anamoprhic film gate and disanamoprhic viewfinder.

The electrical motor of Konvas-2M ( 17EP-16 APK, 19EP-16 APK, 18EP-16 APK ) can be modify on multi speed crystal sycn speed version with speed sintesizer 5..50 fps, 0,1 fps, or 0,01 fps or 0.001 fps

I think, you have 120 m film magazines from Konvas-1M ( 1 KSR-1M ) cameras, because, this magazines compatible with Konvas-1 ( KSR-1M ).

 

About comparison of Konvas-1 and Kinor-35 lenses, I can tell you, The lenses of Kinor-35 better.

This lenses can have more modern version of optical blocks, but, have more hard design of body with more high preicsion focusin mechanism.

And , if you wish have quality of footages similar Kinor-35, you need Konvas-2M.

 

My working set : Konvas-2M with set of spherial lens of Kinor-35 H, universal lens hood of Kinor-35H and other additional acecssories of Kinor-35 H camera.

the many additional accesories of Kinor-35H compatible with Konvas-2M with small modifications.

 

For note, You don't have 35 OKS-1-150-1 150 mm for Kinor-35H prime lens on set, This is very good lens and better from 200 mm, I recommend find of this lens, if you wish.

 

Other idea, if you need more tele lens, i recommend use of photo lenses of medium format photo cameras ( Kiev-60, Pentacon Six ) with adapter.

I love use of Kaleynar-3 150 mm F2.8, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180 mm F2.8, Jupiter-36, 250 mm F3.5.

I know CArl Zeiss 600 mm, but, don't have this lens.

 

About russain anamorphic lenses with 40 mm, i think, they mean of modern Elite Optics anamorphic lenses from St-Petersburg, Russia.

This is Elite Optics : 24.5 mm/ T2.1 , 32 mm? T2/1 ,40 mm/ T2.1, 50 mm/T2.1, 75 mm/T2.1, 100 mm /T2.1, 135 mm /T2.5, 180 mm /T2.8, 250 mm /T3.0, 350 mm, 500 mm.

[Max Jacoby]

I think it would be very interesting to shoot a feature with only one or two lenses, like Bresson (or Angelopouls in 'The Travelling Players, as Remi pointed out). It certainly would force you to design shots that are different than the boring shooting-by-numbers (master-medium-close-up) one sees all the time. Who knows Captian, you might even end up doing an art film because of this ;)

[James Steven Beverly]

If you repalce of Konvas-1 KSR-1 with rheostat motor ( this is not Konvas-1M ) on Konvas-2M with crystal sych motor, you can use of all your lenses from Kinor-35 H camera with Konvas-2M camera.

Konvas-2M have anamoprhic film gate and disanamoprhic viewfinder.

The electrical motor of Konvas-2M ( 17EP-16 APK, 19EP-16 APK, 18EP-16 APK ) can be modify on multi speed crystal sycn speed version with speed sintesizer 5..50 fps, 0,1 fps, or 0,01 fps or 0.001 fps

I think, you have 120 m film magazines from Konvas-1M ( 1 KSR-1M ) cameras, because, this magazines compatible with Konvas-1 ( KSR-1M ).

 

Yeah, I was aware the Konvas M2 could use the Kinor lenses but I already own the Konvas-1 KSR-1. It was a Christmas present from my father so I won't sell it. too much sentimental value. and for the difference in price between a konvas 2m 17 ep and a kinor 35H I'd probably look around for another Kinor if I had the cash, which may take a while. BUT if I run acroos a deal on a Konvas m2 I'd buy it.

 

About comparison of Konvas-1 and Kinor-35 lenses, I can tell you, The lenses of Kinor-35 better.

This lenses can have more modern version of optical blocks, but, have more hard design of body with more high preicsion focusin mechanism.

And , if you wish have quality of footages similar Kinor-35, you need Konvas-2M.

That thought did run across my mind but I thought for second unit stuff, It might work. I'd have to do some tests.

 

My working set : Konvas-2M with set of spherial lens of Kinor-35 H, universal lens hood of Kinor-35H and other additional acecssories of Kinor-35 H camera.

the many additional accesories of Kinor-35H compatible with Konvas-2M with small modifications.

I actually have the fairly well equipped mattebox for the Kinor with a veriety of adapters but I need the mounting arme for the 15mm rods or swing-out arms for the Kinor.

 

 

For note, You don't have 35 OKS-1-150-1 150 mm for Kinor-35H prime lens on set, This is very good lens and better from 200 mm, I recommend find of this lens, if you wish.

 

Yeah, one came up on ebay about 2 weeks ago, I just haven't had the cash to pick it up at the time. I'll eventually get one.

 

Other idea, if you need more tele lens, i recommend use of photo lenses of medium format photo cameras ( Kiev-60, Pentacon Six ) with adapter.

I love use of Kaleynar-3 150 mm F2.8, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180 mm F2.8, Jupiter-36, 250 mm F3.5.

I know CArl Zeiss 600 mm, but, don't have this lens.

 

What kind of adaptor and where would I get one?

 

About russain anamorphic lenses with 40 mm, i think, they mean of modern Elite Optics anamorphic lenses from St-Petersburg, Russia.

This is Elite Optics : 24.5 mm/ T2.1 , 32 mm? T2/1 ,40 mm/ T2.1, 50 mm/T2.1, 75 mm/T2.1, 100 mm /T2.1, 135 mm /T2.5, 180 mm /T2.8, 250 mm /T3.0, 350 mm, 500 mm.

 

Dude, I can barely afford Lomos, forget Elite. I'll just have to live with a 35mm IF I can find one. Thanks for the info though I very much appreciate it. B)

[James Steven Beverly]

I think it would be very interesting to shoot a feature with only one or two lenses, like Bresson (or Angelopouls in 'The Travelling Players, as Remi pointed out). It certainly would force you to design shots that are different than the boring shooting-by-numbers (master-medium-close-up) one sees all the time. Who knows Captian, you might even end up doing an art film because of this ;)

Any film I'm involved with is an art film. Seriously though, I'm leaning more and more that way. It should create a very unique look to the piece, again, not your average horror movie, which is exactly what I'm looking to do here. Of course, the audience will be the ones to decide whether it's art or not, but I will definately do my best. Thanks for the imput. B)

[Leo Anthony Vale]

I think it would be very interesting to shoot a feature with only one or two lenses, like Bresson (or Angelopouls in 'The Travelling Players, as Remi pointed out). It certainly would force you to design shots that are different than the boring shooting-by-numbers (master-medium-close-up) one sees all the time. Who knows Captian, you might even end up doing an art film because of this ;)

 

'20 Thousand Leagues under the sea' and 'The great Locomotive Chase' used the B&L CinemaScope attachment. So the widest lens they had was 50mm. Longer lenses couldn't have a diameter larger than 35mm, which limited the choice of longer lenses.

 

Early scope movies didn't have a big choice of focal lengths.

[James Steven Beverly]

Learn something new every day. Thanks. It gives me more confidence that going with a 50 and 75mm lens selection is the right way to go. Those were wonderful movies and the limitation didn't seem to hurt the cinematography in them at all. B)

[Olex Kalynychenko]

Yeah, I was aware the Konvas M2 could use the Kinor lenses but I already own the Konvas-1 KSR-1. It was a Christmas present from my father so I won't sell it. too much sentimental value. and for the difference in price between a konvas 2m 17 ep and a kinor 35H I'd probably look around for another Kinor if I had the cash, which may take a while. BUT if I run acroos a deal on a Konvas m2 I'd buy it.

That thought did run across my mind but I thought for second unit stuff, It might work. I'd have to do some

 

The matter is that, Konvas-2M , Kinor-35 H two different type of cameras, but from one line.

Konvas-2M created for hand held shooting, but, can be use for studio shooting too. The base advantage of Konvas, the small size, weight and portability and high reliability. If you need shoot at extreme case, the Konvas will work fine.

But, you need humble with high noise of Konvas.

 

The next level- Kinor-35 H, this is elite, delicate, studio camera with low noise, big kit of additional accessories, support devices. Kinor have big size, weight. This is comfortable camera fro studio shooting.

Yes, You can use Kinor for hand held shooting, but, after 2-3 days with 10..12 kg camera in the

shoulder, you will have unforgettable impressions.

 

That's why, Konvas-2M cam be very good complement camera of Kinor-35H.

The similar lens mount, can use of lenses, batteries, matte box, filters, support, folow focus from Kinor.

 

 

I actually have the fairly well equipped mattebox for the Kinor with a veriety of adapters but I need the mounting arme for the 15mm rods or swing-out arms for the Kinor.

Yeah, one came up on ebay about 2 weeks ago, I just haven't had the cash to pick it up at the time. I'll eventually get one.

What kind of adaptor and where would I get one?

 

Kinor can have three versions of mette box.

The first - for spherical lens, compact, install on body of camera and use for hand held shooting.

The second- big matte box, install on rods by arm.

The third - for anamoprhic lenses, install on rods.

 

 

What kind of adaptor and where would I get one?

 

I had adapters for use of photo lenses with Konvas-2M, Kinor-35H, Konvas-1M lenses.

Today, availble for sell adapters for Konvas-1, Konvas-1M cameras only, other type of adapters sold.

But, ihope to have for sell other type of adapters on future.

[James Steven Beverly]

Olex, what can you tell me about anamorphic gates for the Kinor 35H, are they readily availiable and is not can a standard academy gate be machined to an anamorphic?

[Olex Kalynychenko]

Olex, what can you tell me about anamorphic gates for the Kinor 35H, are they readily availiable and is not can a standard academy gate be machined to an anamorphic?

 

Kinor-35 H camera have removable film gate ( parts of film track, slide rails with film gate ),

ground glass.

Kinor-35H can have " H" - normal film gate, 1.37:1, "A" - anamoprhic film gate 2.35:1, " K" masked film gate 1.66:1, "C" Super 35, Normal 35 , 1.85:1 film gate.

You can modify of normal film gate on anamoprhic.

Send me request on my direct email olex@a-teleport. com and i will send you picture of normal film gate with size and calculation of modifictaion.

 

Other idea, you can ask of anamorphic film gate and anamorphic ground glass from seller of russian cine cameras. I must underline, this is rare device.

But, you can have problem to find of disanamorphic viewfinder, This is super rare device.

A some time ago, i know of one technician, who can modify of normal viewfinder on disanamorphic version, but, today, i don't know, who can do this.

[James Steven Beverly]

Thanks Olex, actually, David recommended NOT using a desqueeser because he said the image was much smaller and hard to see the details in. He said it was much better to learn how to judge the non-desqueesed image to frame. I have to defer to his expertice as I've seen his work and love it, so he must be doing something right. However I do want to get those dementions so I'll email you as soon as I'm done here. BTW, Steve Morton makes an Kinor 35H adaptor for the much more common Konvas desequeeser and it'd not too expensive, about 300 bucks if I remember right. B)

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, it's nice to be able to switch between seeing the viewfinder image large and squeezed (to judge focus) and small and unsqueezed (to judge composition) -- but if you can't get a switchable viewfinder, then I wouldn't sweat it too much and just get used to framing a squeezed image. Especially if you have an older, smaller, dimmer viewfinder where it would probably be better to just leave the image larger and squeezed-looking.

[James Steven Beverly]

I won't but if I DID buy an adapter from Morton, you think it would it be too big a pain in the ass to change the viewfinders back and forth (they lock on relitively eazily) I could definately see how having the scope view would help with composition. The viewfinders on these Kinors do tend to be dimmer in general than many western cameras, I don't know if you've ever worked with one before. They're very cool cameras but they do have thier little idiosyncrasies, that being one of them.....How's the gut BTW, you feeling better or is it still hurting?

Edited April 5, 2007 by James Steven Beverly

[David Mullen ASC]

I'm healing up fine, just mildly discomforted.

[James Steven Beverly]

I'm healing up fine, just mildly discomforted.

Good deal, I'm glad to hear you're getting back to your old self, amego. Thanks for your advice on this if I haven't said so before, as well. B)

[Ian Dudley]

Hey there Captain,

 

Did you ever get your 35H viewfinder fixed?

 

Cheers,

 

Ian Dudley

[James Steven Beverly]

Not yet, but I'm not too worried about it at the moment. I figured I'll just have the thing gone through a few weeks before I plan to start principal photography, that way they'll be less chance of it getting srcewed up before the shoot. I still have some other equipment I need to get prior to production and I want to have a video tap installed. I'm pretty much convinced that the mirror on the prizm has gone black and will have to be resilvered so I'll just have everything done at once and see if I can't get a deal on the whole thing. In the mean time if I can pick up some hard to find items for the camera that I'm pretty sure I'll use, I'll get those while they're availible. I'm working now on securing some funding, so let's hope that goes well, cuz it will make life MUCH easier. B)

[James Steven Beverly]

Even I can't afford to light large vistas at night (even an 18K on a condor won't do much on a landscape -- you start talking Musco lights to over a spread, or multiple condors) so don't even mix the words "vista" and "night lighting" in the same sentence unless you have a huge budget.

 

I had a scene in "Astronaut Farmer" where the script used the phrase "we see the cars drive through the huge landscape at night" and right off the bat I knew that we'd have to shoot day for night and dusk for night to get any wide shots at night. An 18K HMI on a condor basically gets you one city block of distance lit, which is nothing in a wide landscape.

 

And after shooting a bunch of plates for day for night efx work (we shot the interior car stuff with a greenscreen and planned on day for night backgrounds) and some dusk for night drive bys, the whole sequence was dropped in post to save money partly.

 

You can light one row of sand dunes at night as long as you don't need to see the landscape beyond. That's like lighting a low hill or a row of buildings on a city block. But even then, if you are using red or magenta gels for a reddish moonlight effect, you need a big bright tungsten unit, like a 20K or 12-light at least.

 

But a "vista" -- forget it. "Lawrence of Arabia" had to use day for night. In fact, can you name any modern movie with a large night time vista landscape in it that didn't involve visual effects? Probably the largest space I've seen lit at night was for "Thunderheart" (Deakins had a huge wide shot of some rolling Badland hills at night, lit with a Musco) and "Die Hard 2" which had some snowy landscapes lit for a snow mobile chase at night (again, lit with a Musco). Otherwise, most people would fake a wide landscape shot at night at twilight or use day for night techniques.

 

Maybe you can use a reddish-magenta filter, shoot day for night, and somehow bounce green light (reflectors through green gel?) onto the faces to cancel some of the red in the shadow side.

 

David, I spoke with Mel today about the lighting situation and what I was planning to do. He said the large lights I mentioned we had were 4 36 Dinos. Are you famillier with these instruments and how do you think they'll work for us? He mentioned they were a little expensive to run and he would probably have to dedicate a genny to them but he still owns them so if we want to use them for Blood Moon, we got'em.

Edited April 9, 2007 by James Steven Beverly