D20 and where it might be going..

[David Mullen ASC]

If the end result was ONLY for NTSC broadcast, sure, one might compare a 480P camera to a 720P or 1080P camera downrezzed to 480P, let's say, compare an SDX900 to a F900 so you'd be comparing 24P to 24P, not 60i to 24P.

 

Same goes if you are only going to create a 2K project, it would be entirely appropriate to compare 4K-to-2K versus 2K cameras. 4K-to-2K probably would look better, but who knows what other factors may come into play that could make another camera enticing.

 

Let me rephrase this another way, Jan -- if YOU want to waste your time drawing endless comparisons without spending any time making tests, knock yourself out.

 

Just don't expect people to be listening to you after awhile because most of us know that there are many real-world factors that affect why we choose one camera over another. And most of us ultimately will wait to draw conclusions until we have more concrete examples to analyze. It's great to compare specs -- for about five minutes. After you've done that, there isn't much to say until some definitive tests show up.

 

And if I had to rent a 2K camera tomorrow -- not three months from now -- I'd definitely say that the Arri D20 is competitive with a camera not even available yet at the rental houses. I could make a pretty good guess that the RED would be a more popular rental next year than the Arri-D20, but that's all it would be, a guess. But since no one can buy an Arri-D20 camera anyway, I'm not sure why it even matters -- Arri's fortune isn't hanging on the success of the D20.

 

Some of the reactions to your posts are purely emotional -- Arri is a good company with a fine history, great people work there, and many of us have long-term associations with them (I even went to film school with Mark Shipman-Mueller) so even if the Arri-D20 proves to be an inferior product, many us don't like to beat-up on Arri too much about it. And I certainly wouldn't write them off either in the digital camera market...

 

Many of us professionals here have to maintain a positive working relationship with ALL the manufacturers, Sony and Panasonic, Panavision and Arri, Kodak and Fuji, so we don't spend a lot of time beating up one and promoting the other, especially since any one of them could release a superior product to the other at any one time.

[jan von krogh]

Let me rephrase this another way, Jan -- if YOU want to waste your time drawing endless comparisons without spending any time making tests, knock yourself out.

David - it wasn´t me who started a thread regarding "D20 and where it might be going" due to REDs beginning introduction to the market.

So better aim at the correct person.

 

If the end result was ONLY for NTSC broadcast, sure, one might compare a 480P camera to a 720P or 1080P camera downrezzed to 480P, let's say, compare an SDX900 to a F900 so you'd be comparing 24P to 24P, not 60i to 24P.

we both know that we have filmout & dci @4k, so there would be no reason to artificially reduce a 4k to 2k for release print or digital master.

 

And most of us ultimately will wait to draw conclusions until we have more concrete examples to analyze. It's great to compare specs -- for about five minutes. After you've done that, there isn't much to say until some definitive tests show up.

we just have specs to compare and thats exaclty what i have done.

 

And if I had to rent a 2K camera tomorrow -- not three months from now -- I'd definitely say that the Arri D20 is competitive with a camera not even available yet at the rental houses. I could make a pretty good guess that the RED would be a more popular rental next year than the Arri-D20, but that's all it would be, a guess.

which is the -topic- of the thread in which we are posting, and to remember you, i didn´t start it.

 

Some of the reactions to your posts are purely emotional --

indeed.

 

Arri is a good company with a fine history, great people work there, and many of us have long-term associations with them (I even went to film school with Mark Shipman-Mueller) so even if the Arri-D20 proves to be an inferior product, many us don't like to beat-up on Arri too much about it. And I certainly wouldn't write them off either in the digital camera market...

I think i made it more than clear that i sincerly hope that ARRI gets a very succesful position in the digital cinema camera market.

 

to be completly open, if i could buy the same product at arri, i wouldn´t hesitate to buy it at a +20% premium there. #1 as they certainly would have a clear support plan (which red is only setting up atm), #2 due to several good personal contacts with arri employees, #3 as its much easier to deal with a manufacturer which actually has a office in your city, #4 as i have had for the most part only positive experiences with their product building quality.

 

i have concerns that arri is missing the timing - since years. when i bought our hdcam camera, arri had no digital camera i could buy. i would 100% preferred to buy at arri. asking them for years when i finally could buy a digital 35mm sensor arri passed. then came red and basicly is about to define the s35/4k digital camera market and they don´t compete. and both of us want them to get into the ring.

 

Many of us professionals here have to maintain a positive working relationship with ALL the manufacturers, Sony and Panasonic, Panavision and Arri, Kodak and Fuji, so we don't spend a lot of time beating up one and promoting the other, especially since any one of them could release a superior product to the other at any one time.

 

to make that perfectly clear - i don´t beat up any manufacturer.

arri doesn´t sell digital cinema cameras.

its now proven that there is a market for thousands of those, right now, right here.

arri should competete & partcipate in this market, and not only taking a small chunk out of the rental market, leaving the rest of the market to the japanese behemonths and the american newcomers.

 

my gradmother worked at arri, i have be doing many of my films with arris products and they are real quality.

so let me express my concern.

i saw it happen at to many fine german manufacturers, leica, steenbeck, even bosch broadcast - they all were champions in their products class and they all missed the translation to digital. and i certainly don´t want to see the same happening at arri.

 

so don´t shoot the messenger.

Edited April 26, 2007 by jan von krogh

[jan von krogh]

Actually, the Red offers NO competition right now. How can you say that a camera that is being used daily can't compete with a camera that hasn't been finished yet? I'm asking you very nicely. Please lay off the absolute statements!

Brad, they have sold to >1500 customers already before NAB.

If you wish to call that no competition then we have a quite different understanding of market share, market saturation and revenue.

 

When you think that this is ridiculous - its a pretty common business approach in our industry to pay for a movie before shooting starts, or, even more industrial, thats the way airbus and boeing sell their new product (as 787 or 380 right now) since decades - only on announced specs.

 

what do you expect me to say? i have stated that i wish arri the best, want to see them competeting with red, praised their support, their talented employees, said that i expect delays & screwups @ red (and any other r&d)...

 

... but absolute statements as in "arri doesn´t sell digital cameras" or "the PJ shortmovie shot on red attracted thousands of people @ NAB, and the reactions we are aware of oscillated from positive to really impressed" are, sorry, 100% correct.

 

imagine aaton would have presold 1500 penelopes and we would been discussing the penelope vs 235 or 416.

 

however i didn´t start this thread and i agree - its speculation for a good part as red still didn´t started delivery.

but if they deliver, even later, arri allowed a competitor to leapfrog them - that is, sorry again, a strategic mistake which nobody, who likes arri, should see relaxed.

 

to close my post, let me add that i have the impression that beneath the surface this thread seems to have a "film/arri/oldschool vs. digital/red/new kids on the block"-scheme going - adding a quite unnecessary emotional tone to several posts.

[Alexander Joyce]

David - it wasn´t me who started a thread regarding "D20 and where it might be going" due to REDs beginning introduction to the market.

 

Excuse me Jan, but in no way did I ever say that this thread had anything to do with Red. If anything it had more to do with the F23, but I didn't even say that.

I did forget to put a question mark after the title, in effect making it look like a statement, but still I don't see how you would think it to be aimed at Red as you already knew my interest in the Red was slim to none.

I actually only asked about Rental vs Retail because I knew that if I asked for someone's opinion on it versus the F23 then this would start.

 

The discussion did however turn to Red(as it always seems to do these days) when you posted.

 

You were talking about me putting words in your mouth. Mate you just went and changed the entire subject of the thread.

Just like when someone asked about the XDCAM 350 vs the HDX900 cam. Someone actually beat you too it, but you were number two in line to try and turn it into a Red vs the scrappy old tech thing.

You seem to jump to conclusions because you think that behind every thread lies a hidden agenda against the Red.

 

to close my post, let me add that i have the impression that beneath the surface this thread seems to have a "film/arri/oldschool vs. digital/red/new kids on the block"-scheme going - adding a quite unnecessary emotional tone to several posts.

 

Well again this only shows that you do seem to think that there are people here that are out to get everyone who's bought a Red.

Why there is an emotional tone is because every time someone discusses a camera like the D20 or F900 or F23 or SI-2K or Dalsa or Genesis someone comes along and throws out this wild claim that the Red is now the de-facto tool and everyone who doesn't realise that is an idiot. Even 35mm is pronounced dead before the damn camera is even out of the factory.

 

The D20 was built as a modular system. You can rip the back right off it and replace it. They are probably well at work on a new back already and probably have been for quite some time. A company like ARRI has alot more at stake than a new startup like Red. They can't afford to have a product ruin a brand name that has taken almost a century to build.

 

To evaluate a, lets say, Thomson Viper in comparision to a Sony Digitalbetacam, you would evaluate the Viper in PAL or NTSC?

Or to compare a Arri 435 with a Arri 416 you would only scan 16mm of the 435 stock?

 

Now ofcourse you can compare a 4K to a 2K cam if the target is 2K delivery. Just like you can compare an F900 to 35mm if the target is 35mm out. It's the end result that matters and just because it has a higher pixel count doesn't mean the sensor produces better looking images.

Edited April 26, 2007 by Alexander Joyce

[Max Jacoby]

Personally I don't worry about Arri missing the boat on digital. As the D20, the Arrilaser and the Arriscan has shown they are venturing into digital cinema already. From what they have told me, they don't really plan to develop a new line of 35mm cameras, but are still concentrating on improving the existing cameras (better steadiness for one). So it is safe to say that most of their R&D effort will go into digital cameras from now on.

 

I think however that they are aiming at a different market than the Red, so it is unfair to compare these two companies. Arri's products are aimed solely at a higher end market (not that Red doesn't aim at this too, but not exclusively). The high-end feature/commercial/tv market only requries a limited amount of gear and here quality is primordial. These are productions who can afford to pay extra to get the very last bit of quality (like an optical viewfinder) so I would expect Arri's future digital cameras to be about the same price as a 35mm kit.

 

We have the same situation with lenses, for the prize of 5 Red primes you get one Master Prime. Yet the Master Primes are selling really well, but only to rental houses, because that is the only market which can afford them.

[David Mullen ASC]

we both know that we have filmout & dci @4k, so there would be no reason to artificially reduce a 4k to 2k for release print or digital master.

 

I had to do exactly that for "Astronaut Farmer" -- scan at 4K and reduce to 2K for the rest of the D.I. It's quite common actually, due to the higher costs of working in 4K at D.I. facilities.

 

Just because you say there's no reason, doesn't mean that some people aren't going to use the RED camera as a 2K camera.

[jan von krogh]

Just like when someone asked about the XDCAM 350 vs the HDX900 cam. Someone actually beat you too it, but you were number two in line to try and turn it into a Red vs the scrappy old tech thing.

 

ahem - i especially warned, when someone else recommended red, that red might be problematic in the ENG/EFP space:

 

"red certainly offers a much better image quality and more creative options, but for eng etc, format of delivery might be problematic.

i don´t see any mayor broadcasters accepting redcodefiles in the near future, they will insist on getting a media (hdcam, xdcam, dvcpro, D5 etc).

its the same with cineon and master files - the broadcasters often want to have a hdcam tape, even when uncompressed masters are available."

 

and then recommended another camera:

"thomson grass valley also has a very interesting camera in that pricerange, the infinity.

but it is delayed and i don´t know when it will be delivered."

 

that is not exactly "red vs scappy old tech" - that is the opposite as i warned that broadcaster IMHO won´t adapt to new workflows, and recommended to have a look at Thomson GV.

 

The discussion did however turn to Red(as it always seems to do these days) when you posted.

that is exactly the point - would we have >1500 D20s coming then Arri would been menitioned all the time.

red is mentioned all the time because they aim at several market spaces at once, and that is not "these days" but will stay, even increase, if they start delivering.

The huge studio/ENG/EFP/pro/consumer core markets of Sony, Ikegami, Thomson, Panasonic aren´t affected to much by this new camera.

For SI, Viper, D20, Genesis, F23, 750/790/900, Dalsa and Phantom however it is indeed a special situation, when one camera sells more than all of its competition together.

 

You seem to jump to conclusions because you think that behind every thread lies a hidden agenda against the Red.

Well again this only shows that you do seem to think that there are people here that are out to get everyone who's bought a Red.

wrong - its the opposite. i have the impression that several people don´t understand the impact of thousands of 4k digital s35mm cinema cameras coming to the market within 12 months.

 

Why there is an emotional tone is because every time someone discusses a camera like the D20 or F900 or F23 or SI-2K or Dalsa or Genesis someone comes along and throws out this wild claim that the Red is now the de-facto tool and everyone who doesn't realise that is an idiot. Even 35mm is pronounced dead before the damn camera is even out of the factory.

Listen Alexander, i have criticised posters on redforum.net for their incompetent "Sonys death" "Arri is death" etc.

Its getting on my nerves as well - we know that in this industry change rarely happen overnight.

 

However in the pre-red era, i thought that it would take 10-20 years until digital aquistion would become the mayority of cinematic shooting.

Now my speculation is rather 5-10 years, but that is only a guess, nobody can know that for sure.

 

What i however DO know for sure, is that thousands of possible buyers for a ARRI developped digital s35 cameras are putting there money elsewhere.

And i think ARRI is missing its oppurtunity here.

 

The D20 was built as a modular system. You can rip the back right off it and replace it. They are probably well at work on a new back already and probably have been for quite some time. A company like ARRI has alot more at stake than a new startup like Red. They can't afford to have a product ruin a brand name that has taken almost a century to build.

fully agreed.

 

Now ofcourse you can compare a 4K to a 2K cam if the target is 2K delivery. Just like you can compare an F900 to 35mm if the target is 35mm out. It's the end result that matters and just because it has a higher pixel count doesn't mean the sensor produces better looking images.

agreed, but if we compare cameras or film stock, we don´t compare distribution.

And 4k offers lots of production value for post etc besides visible image quality for the audience.

[jan von krogh]

Personally I don't worry about Arri missing the boat on digital. As the D20, the Arrilaser and the Arriscan has shown they are venturing into digital cinema already.

agreed - Arrilaser and Arriscan are fine examples of what Arri can do in the digital marketspace. You can buy the products, they are used all the time and are among the best of their particular class. And that is exactly the position a Arri digital s35 camera should have in the market as well in my opinion - and it doesn´t yet.

 

Hey, even an Arri built, 416 sized 2K camera at a competetive price point would be a great addition to our set of tools.

The D20 might be an option for companys who rent - but for companys who do buy (as mine) - Arri has no offer.

 

So it is safe to say that most of their R&D effort will go into digital cameras from now on.

my last talks with D20 people from Arri indicated, sadly enough, otherwise.

 

I think however that they are aiming at a different market than the Red, so it is unfair to compare these two companies. Arri's products are aimed solely at a higher end market (not that Red doesn't aim at this too, but not exclusively). The high-end feature/commercial/tv market only requries a limited amount of gear and here quality is primordial.

Sorry, i don´t want to compare specs once more- but the resolution of the sensor of the Arri D20 is -half- the RED resolution etc.

So if "quality is primordial" (what it sadly isn´t as we know we would be shooting 65mm then all the time), and the D20 would be at 15 stops, 16bit raw 8k @ 120 fps, then i would agree. But it isn´t .

 

These are productions who can afford to pay extra to get the very last bit of quality (like an optical viewfinder) so I would expect Arri's future digital cameras to be about the same price as a 35mm kit.

two points here, max.

#1 that would reduce arri to a niche player in the starting market - right now they are by far the market leader.

#2 optical vs. electronic viewfinder isn´t about the last bit of quality. please lets not go there additional. both, OVF and EVF have advantages and disadvantages.

 

We have the same situation with lenses, for the prize of 5 Red primes you get one Master Prime. Yet the Master Primes are selling really well, but only to rental houses, because that is the only market which can afford them.

i disagree. the announced red lenses are good, but our zeiss 1.2 set is faster, our angenieux zooms cover much more and have a better T... here red aims at good enough, not better, but cheaper. its different with the camera body where they clearly aim at having "better" and "cheaper".

 

Anyhow - Arris divisions besides the digital camera and arriscan however will benefit a lot from the red sales.

Plenty of demand for MB20s etc, and all reservation holders i spoke to are rather interested in buying zeiss/angenieux/cooke/master primes and/or zooms(certainly different with the indies and budget folks who represent a good part of the red buyers).

[jan von krogh]

I had to do exactly that for "Astronaut Farmer" -- scan at 4K and reduce to 2K for the rest of the D.I. It's quite common actually, due to the higher costs of working in 4K at D.I. facilities.

Just because you say there's no reason, doesn't mean that some people aren't going to use the RED camera as a 2K camera.

true - but if we compare cameras, we don´t compare distribution.

to put it extreme : i won´t say "35mm makes no sense as youtoube.com has low resolution"....

[Max Jacoby]

So if "quality is primordial" (what it sadly isn´t as we know we would be shooting 65mm then all the time), and the D20 would be at 15 stops, 16bit raw 8k @ 120 fps, then i would agree. But it isn´t .

 

I am not talking about the D20, but about future digital cameras by Arri that they themselves consider at least equal of 35mm.

 

#1 that would reduce arri to a niche player in the starting market - right now they are by far the market leader.

 

I think you missed my point. Arri caters to a higher end market than Red, as evidenced by their 35mm cameras, which are mostly owned by rental companies and hardly any individuals. They will aim their future digital cameras at exactly the same market. So in a way Dalsa is more of a competition than Red for them.

 

the announced red lenses are good

Quite a statment, since they are just that: announced. So no one can have an idea about their quality yet.

 

I am getting sick and tired of any digital camera thread automatically turning into a Red vs everyone else argument. There is enough place for other camera products as well and I really don't see the point of these doomsday scenarios that spell the end of everyone who appears to be lagging behind Red.

[David Mullen ASC]

When choosing a camera or lens or process, whatever, cinematographers do factor in distribution format all the time. Like I said, look at the SDX900, an excellent 480P camera - many people are shooting low-end local commercial spots on it. It compares well to the more expensive Digital Betacams out there. It has 2/3" CCD's, records DVCPRO-50, etc.

 

So if you're shooting for NTSC broadcast, while a downconverted F900 may still look better, the improvement may not be worth the extra cost.

 

If you're shooting for HDTV distribution, even though a 4K camera may produce better results, a good 2K or HD camera may be close enough in quality to make other factors more important. Of course, the ringer here is that the RED is also cheap, making it appealing on that level too.

 

Cinematographers factor in distribution formats all the time when making equipment choices and when doing tests. Not everyone shoots for theatrical release for one thing.

 

Besides, the Arri-D20 in data mode is 2.8K -- though that's not 4K, it may do some other things better than the RED to recommend it, we don't know until it is tested. I don't know which has better dynamic range, for example. I would guess that they were similar and that the Dalsa had the best, but without testing, I can't back any of those claims up.

 

The trouble with concentrating so heavily on positively promoting the RED camera here is that after awhile, no one will think you have any objectivity, Jan. And if you lose any semblence of objectivity, then no one will listen to you. They may even assume you are a paid company shill, even if that's not true.

 

It's what I said about white noise -- constant repetition on a single theme starts to cause people's attentions to drift elsewhere, whether pro-RED or anti-RED. People think "if I read one more thing from that RED guy, I'm going to scream!" -- even on the RED subforum. People want hard information but they don't want to feel they are walking into a RED advertisement everytime they read one of your posts. I would tone it down a notch or talk about something other than the RED for awhile.

[Stephen Williams]

It's what I said about white noise -- constant repetition on a single theme starts to cause people's attentions to drift elsewhere, whether pro-RED or anti-RED.

 

Hi Everybody,

 

I think this thread has run its course.

 

Stephen