Premium Member Max Jacoby Posted September 8, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted September 8, 2007 I had a look at the Sigma lens webpage recently and I found it interesting to note that they have several lenses that have the absolutely same characteristics as the Red lenses: 18-50mm F2.8 Macro Zoom lens with 7 iris blades 50-150mm F2.8 Zoom lens with 9 iris blades 300mm F2.8 telephoto lens with 9 iris blades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary McClurg Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 There was a picture of a Cooke 300... I thought it looked a lot like the Red 300 as well.. I know that P & S new cine style lens are just retooled Zeiss still lens you can pick up for around $750 each if I remember right... Or there is a guy I think he is RPLens... he retools Nikons to be cine lens to work with the Pro and Mini 35's from P & S... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Collier Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 Well Janard did tell us who hes got on staff...I didn't hear any opticle engeneers names dropped. Could be cause an OE isn't as sexy as an EE from AJA but who knows. I would not be surprised if they are repackaging pre-produced lenses in PL, with slight modification to adjust the flange depth requirement (or maybe not...theres no opticle VF) Sigma isn't terrible, I have a bunch of them for my SLR set. Definatley the best of the bargain basement lenses. Also I think sigma has the largest opticle glass factory in the world, so economies of scale is there. I think it may be cultural, anyone who has seen a japanees tourist knows what I am talking about. They don't carry Point and shoot cameras, they love their SLRS. and now DSLRs. Not trying to be offensive or stereotypical its just an observation (and actually I respect them for it...my entire extended family has nothing but PAS all day. They must love their pictures.) Perhaps that led sigma to be such a large lens company with low prices. They are decent but they have flaws. They don't have any good coatings on those lenses. Flare is a constant concern when I slap my sig 28-70 or 70-300 macro. backlit situations take some thinking. Glass quality and construction is a bit lacking, but not horribly, I just don't get that 'built like a diamond' feeling a more costly lens has. I think for cinema use I will reserve judgement on RED lenses, since its speculation at best they are repackaged sigmas, but just wanted to throw my opinon on sigma as a lens company. As I said I do proudly own some sig still lenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Gross Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 Nice detective work Max... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted September 8, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted September 8, 2007 Nice detective work Max... Hi Mitch, I checked out the Sigma 18-50 at a local photo store before coming to IBC, I think there is a good chance the lenses are related! The focus marks on the Red zoom are very well spaced, min focusing is 8' from film plane & about 1.5 inches from the front element. There were no Red prime sets at IBC. Nothing in the Sigma line matches the specs for the primes! Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Brereton Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 Someone either here or on CML noted that the RED lens had 'Made In Britain' stamped on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert duke Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 The sigma Lenses state that the lense will vingette when used with 35mm or oversized sensors. I dont think it is the same lens... but then again I am just a grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Max Jacoby Posted September 8, 2007 Author Premium Member Share Posted September 8, 2007 The 35mm motion picture area is smaller than the 35mm stills area, as the former runs film vertically, the latter horizontally. So you can very well use these lenses on motion picture cameras including the Red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tim Pipher Posted September 8, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted September 8, 2007 I assume I'm missing something here, but does that mean that I could buy the $670 lens from Sigma instead of the $7,500 18-50 mm zoom from Red and get similar or the same performance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted September 8, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted September 8, 2007 I assume I'm missing something here, but does that mean that I could buy the $670 lens from Sigma instead of the $7,500 18-50 mm zoom from Red and get similar or the same performance? Hi Tim, The lens was built / rebuilt (in England?). The mechanical work alone would normally cost more than Red is charging, I don't think anybody can complain. Of course the Sigma idea is just speculation, I don't have a problem if it's true. There are no other PL mounted cine zooms anywhere near that price point. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tim Pipher Posted September 8, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted September 8, 2007 Thanks Stephen. So you're saying the Sigma $670 lens couldn't be used as-is on the Red -- it would have to be modified, and that's where the expense comes in, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary McClurg Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 Thanks Stephen. So you're saying the Sigma $670 lens couldn't be used as-is on the Red -- it would have to be modified, and that's where the expense comes in, correct? Giving all my secrets away... :( Nah I posted it above... unless he has changed his prices... its $375 per lens... www.rplens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted September 8, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted September 8, 2007 Thanks Stephen. So you're saying the Sigma $670 lens couldn't be used as-is on the Red -- it would have to be modified, and that's where the expense comes in, correct? Hi, As the Sigma does not have an F stop adjustment you could not use it at all right now. Birger engineering is proposing a mount with electronic controls, in the future it might be possible to use, how well it would work is at this time pure speculation! Just to put lens modifications into perspective, Van Diemen make a beautiful re-house for a Cooke Series II / III prime lenses. The conversion costs £4500 /$9000 for the conversion of a single prime lens, the customer has to supply the original lens! Century Optics have also converted Nikon Zooms, the finished lens is about $18,500 more than 10 times the original lens. For lenses to work well in a motion picture environment, mechanics are where a huge amount of money is spent. Cooke make a small light weight zoom, price $45,000, expect very good performance & build quality, the Red Zooms seems a good value for money in comparison. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Max Jacoby Posted September 8, 2007 Author Premium Member Share Posted September 8, 2007 Cooke make a small light weight zoom, price $45,000, expect very good performance & build quality, the Red Zooms seems a good value for money in comparison. Is that the 15-40mm T2? That's not a lot for such a high quality lens, I would have figured it to be more expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tim Pipher Posted September 8, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted September 8, 2007 Hi, As the Sigma does not have an F stop adjustment you could not use it at all right now. Birger engineering is proposing a mount with electronic controls, in the future it might be possible to use, how well it would work is at this time pure speculation! Just to put lens modifications into perspective, Van Diemen make a beautiful re-house for a Cooke Series II / III prime lenses. The conversion costs £4500 /$9000 for the conversion of a single prime lens, the customer has to supply the original lens! Century Optics have also converted Nikon Zooms, the finished lens is about $18,500 more than 10 times the original lens. For lenses to work well in a motion picture environment, mechanics are where a huge amount of money is spent. Cooke make a small light weight zoom, price $45,000, expect very good performance & build quality, the Red Zooms seems a good value for money in comparison. Stephen Thanks Stephen. I figured I had to have this confused -- thanks for clearing this up! Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted September 8, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted September 8, 2007 Is that the 15-40mm T2? That's not a lot for such a high quality lens, I would have figured it to be more expensive. Hi Max, They mentioned that on the stand yesterday, the $ price is slightly low due to exchange rates & will probably be increased. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Max Jacoby Posted September 8, 2007 Author Premium Member Share Posted September 8, 2007 Hi Stephen Do you know the price in Euros? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Chris Keth Posted September 8, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted September 8, 2007 I wonder how well matched sets of RED lenses will be. Still lens makers generally don't give it any thought and lenses within the same range can vary widely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted September 8, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted September 8, 2007 Hi Stephen Do you know the price in Euros? Hi Max, It was never mentioned, there may not be a euro price list. £25,000 I believe in UK Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Dautry Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 When did sigma start making lenses in the UK? Les at cooke might tell you a different story... you think your too cool for school, well ive got news for you walter cronkite..... you arent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Max Jacoby Posted September 8, 2007 Author Premium Member Share Posted September 8, 2007 When did sigma start making lenses in the UK? Les at cooke might tell you a different story... you think your too cool for school, well ive got news for you walter cronkite..... you arent. I strongly suspect that the rehousing has been done in the UK, hence the 'Made in the UK' stamp. The rehousing itself does not have an influence on the optical quality of a lens, that is determined by the choices made at the design stage (how to correct abberations, distortion, size vs speed, etc...) Cooke have denied any involvement with the Red lenses. If the Red lenses had been designed from the ground up, be it by Cooke or anyone else, then they would be a hell of a lot more expensive than they are now. Also in that case you can bet that the different lenses would have the same number of iris blades, to ensure uniformity of bokeh, which is not the case now. For what it's worth, Cooke lenses have a very distinct 8 bladed iris, while the Red lenses have 7 and 9 leaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Schneider Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 Is that the 15-40mm T2? That's not a lot for such a high quality lens, I would have figured it to be more expensive. That is rather expensive, considering that the Optimo 15-40 is about $36,000. The Cooke is only $10000 less than the 24-290, and that is a LOT more glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted September 8, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted September 8, 2007 When did sigma start making lenses in the UK? Les at cooke might tell you a different story... you think your too cool for school, well ive got news for you walter cronkite..... you arent. Hi, Les was standing 1 foot away from me and Paul Clements on the Cooke Stand, Paul asked directly if Cooke was involved in the Red lenses. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary McClurg Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 Hi, Les was standing 1 foot away from me and Paul Clements on the Cooke Stand, Paul asked directly if Cooke was involved in the Red lenses. Stephen So what was his answer... I guess since you posted no answer... either... no... or nope.... is the answer... but I don't think even if they did they could say so... Actually someone said if the Red lens are really good.. they might make more money off the lens than the cameras... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted September 8, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted September 8, 2007 So what was his answer... I guess since you posted no answer... either... no... or nope.... is the answer... but I don't think even if they did they could say so... Actually someone said if the Red lens are really good.. they might make more money off the lens than the cameras... Hi, Paul did not ask Les, however Les overheard the answer that we were given: Cooke is not involved in the production of Red lenses, they don't have any spare capacity, they can't make Cooke lenses quickly enough to fulfill existing demand, there R&D department is also snowed under with future projects. A single lens takes 6 weeks to produce, all scales are individually calibrated, glass is color matched. It's very labor intensive building lenses the Cooke way. FWIW Cooke have been asked that question many times! Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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