underwater lighting safety

[timHealy]

I think this discussion is getting very dangerous. The characteristics of a group of people convincing each other that something stupid is a good idea are readily apparent here - am I the only person who can see where this is going? I'm going to bow out of this particular piece of groupthink having said this:

 

The fact that it worked once doesn't mean it will work again. The fact that nobody got hurt does not mean it is safe. The fact that it may work does not make it a good idea. The fact that it is convenient and cost-saving does not make it correct.

 

Anybody who does this without official written sanction from the manufacturer, which I suspect you will not get, is a cloth fool and deserves every bit of trouble they get.

 

Phi

 

I completely agree with Phil here.

 

Everyone here is talking about how they have worked and will continue to work, but electricity is a very finicky thing and film shoots occur all over the place under different situations. Sooner or later using a fluorescent underwater without any water proof connections will prove to be trouble. Hopefully no one will get hurt in the long run.

 

I very much agree with Phil that we will not hear from Kino about this. They are a fairly large and well known company and if they official say that Kinos can be used as they are in a body of water, the moment some one gets hurt or injured they will have a lawsuit on their hands.

 

I would suggest being safe and use something built specifically for underwater work.

 

Best

 

Tim

[Walter Graff]

Anybody who does this without official written sanction from the manufacturer, which I suspect you will not get, is a cloth fool and deserves every bit of trouble they get.

 

Phi

 

While I don't think you will get "official" sanction, manufactures publicly admit the different uses of their equipment that might not be exactly what it was first invented for but was realized over time. I found that old press release Kino Flo came out with two years ago that I mentioned earlier where they admitted that their lights were successfully being used for underwater work. Does it make it right, acceptable? This industry was built on creating ways of making things work that were not considered the norm. The gaffers who taught me told me of the stories of shooting on-location in NY and doing illegal tie ins to Con Ed power and how the police had to be paid off to make sure you were not bothered (each shift). Was it right? Probably not, but it wasn't done with any less respect than any professional would do. To this day there are many things done on a film set that some would say might not seem safe, but proper planning and execution by qualified individuals is about the best you can get, and as history writes film sets are one of the safest places to be. Accidents do happen, even with qualified pros (flying a helicopter feet from an actor with incendiary devices going off (Twilight Zone). But the number of injuries on all sets is rare even in situations that sometimes seem like one could die aka when I'm shooting and call my wife to tell her I love her just in case. Welcome to the world of creating illusion.

 

<h1 class="style73" align="justify">Sept. 30, 2006</h1> Press Release

 

Kino Flo Changes the Way Movies Are Made

Innovative Lighting Company Turns 20

 

"Over the years, filmmakers put Kino Flos to use in new ways, in bluescreen traveling matte photography, for production design, and even as underwater lighting. Eventually, Kino Flos were staples on film, video and photo sets from Hollywood to Bollywood."

 

http://www.kinoflo.com/Top%20Head%20%20But...o%20Changes.htm

 

 

[Hal Smith]

One question I want answered is whether the transformers in a kinoflo ballast isolate the fixture from some of the protection that a a GFCI provides. Something I read recently gave me the idea that it is possible for a transformer to do just that.................

Not any transformer. There are high isolation transformers used in situations like operating rooms that have virtually no leakage current. I wouldn't trust a standard dry transformer to keep me safe if I was up to my waist in a pool, only a medically rated transformer.

[Jess Haas]

Not any transformer. There are high isolation transformers used in situations like operating rooms that have virtually no leakage current. I wouldn't trust a standard dry transformer to keep me safe if I was up to my waist in a pool, only a medically rated transformer.

I am not talking about the transformer keeping you safe, I am talking about the possibility for it to hide the ground fault from the GFCI. I don't know if this is occurring, but I have a suspicion that it could be possible.

 

The very nature of a transformer seems to me like it would hide a ground fault in the same way that an isolation transformer does. Whether a reference to ground is isolated seems irrelevant.

 

~Jess

Edited November 28, 2007 by Jess Haas

[Jess Haas]

So, if I want to light a body of water such as a pool or the like and the existing built in lighting sources are either not matching or otherwise unacceptable AND a human will NOT be in the pool, then this method will be fine?

If you position lights and then power them after no one is in the water, and make sure that there is no possibility of someone coming in contact with the body of water, and use GFCIs then I don't really see a problem in clean fresh water.

 

I would stay away from saline pools and saltwater.

 

The cables may absorb some water which could lead to issues with them.

 

anyone know at what depth a 4ft Kino will implode?

If someone wants to pay for the bulb I will gladly find out. Even a burnt out bulb will do if someone wants to send it my way, it just needs to have the protective plastic that kino provides on it and the pins can't have been broken.

 

On a side note fluorescent bulbs used underwater will most likely look slightly more magenta than usual since they will most likely be functioning at below normal operating temperature. This should make it possible to overdrive them a bit without getting the usual green spike so you may be able to get away with operating 2ft tubes in 4ft mode.

 

~Jess

[Iskra Valtcheva]

Wow. What a can of worms I opened with my question.

 

As Michael said, we decided not to submerge the kino heads, and had to come up with an alternative setup: luma key (black background) instead of a chroma key (green screen). We basically used a 12x12 solid as a background against one of the pool's walls, and lit the actor with tungstens from above the water. The director liked the idea since it was safe, and worked well in terms of story - made it look as if the character is descending into a "void". In the end, although it created tension on set and in pre-pro, I feel good about my decision. The underwater crew and the actor came to thank me personally after the shoot.

 

And here's the long awaited response from Kino Flo:

 

iskra: thank you for the email. generally, we recommend shooting underwater

with hyrdoflex or pace technology fixtures because they have nice, durable,

heavy metal housings (our plastic fixtures tend to float) brass fittings for

electrical connections and insualting acrylic tubes to protect the kino flo

true match lamps from breakage due to handling and underwater pressure.

 

if you are a trained, experienced professional, with common sense, the

design of the kino flo remote fixture heads do allow you to operate safely

in wet environments such in rain or on wet stage floors without extra

waterproof housings, as long as the electronic ballasts are not exposed to

the moisture. fixtures like the wall-o-lite, image seris, diva-lites,

vista-beams, parabeams, and parazips that have build in electronics can in

now way be used in wet environments without protection from the wet

elements. the safer fixtures are the portable units such as the 4banks,

double, singles, 12v kits, kamio, barflys, mega flos, and blanket lite.

 

if you have any additional questions or if you need more information, please

contact me at scott@kinoflo.com or at 818 767 6528.

 

regards,

scott stueckle

kino flo, inc.

 

 

I immediately asked for specific information on submerging the heads underwater, and here's what I got, right away. Thank you Scott!

 

iskra:

 

forward as you wish. as far as advice on using kino flos under water, we

don't make them to be used under water. like dedo lights, they can be

submerged without tripping a gfci or causing harm, but since they are not

tested for nor rated to operate under water, frozen in ice, launched into

space (ok, we have nearly done that) or other extreme applications for which

they may work, we don't offer advice on how to use the lights in these

environments. but i can show you how to tape them to wall, light a

bluescreen, yadda, yadda, yadda . . .

 

ciao.

 

scott stueckle

kino flo, inc.

[Walter Graff]

From kino flo:

 

"if you are a trained, experienced professional, with common sense, the

design of the kino flo remote fixture heads do allow you to operate safely

in wet environments such in rain or on wet stage floors without extra

waterproof housings, as long as the electronic ballasts are not exposed to

the moisture."

 

As I said, you'd be surprised what kino flos response will be. I guess we can now close this thread... hopefully.

[Jess Haas]

As I said, you'd be surprised what kino flos response will be. I guess we can now close this thread... hopefully.

They said that they don't endorse using them underwater. Is that really surprising?

 

~Jess

[timHealy]

From kino flo:

 

"if you are a trained, experienced professional, with common sense, the

design of the kino flo remote fixture heads do allow you to operate safely

in wet environments such in rain or on wet stage floors without extra

waterproof housings, as long as the electronic ballasts are not exposed to

the moisture."

 

As I said, you'd be surprised what kino flos response will be. I guess we can now close this thread... hopefully.

 

I don't think the issue was using kinos in a wet environment which we do all the time. The jist of this thread was using them with the heads submerged. That is the thing I am most concerned about doing and avoiding, especially with actors and crew in the water as well.

 

Best

 

Tim

[timHealy]

They said that they don't endorse using them underwater. Is that really surprising?

 

~Jess

 

 

No not really. As Scott mentioned they don't build them for that purpose. And they don't want to be liable for saying you can and then getting sued when someone gets hurt.

 

Best

 

Tim

[JD Hartman]

Okay, it would seem that we have the definitive answer. The answer is no. But instead of locking this thread, it would be better to edit the replies, keep the basic information and move it to a locked Lighting FAQ forum. Same for the power Tie-in thread, because that question will be asked again and again. While Tie-ins became another heated discussion, it would be better to present some basic information along with the cautions and alternatives. To those who will argue that the information is useless, I must counter that in the East Cost/NYC metro area, it's still being done on non-union and student shoots. And the film students are probably the least qualified to attempt it.

[Walter Graff]

Okay, it would seem that we have the definitive answer. The answer is no.

 

THe answer they gave is it would be better to use htem in housings which will save the fixtures connectors, lmaps fomr potential breakage, and so they don't float. THat is not a no. For use that have and wil use Kino Flo underwater, we know the answer.

[Jess Haas]

If you are comfortable with the wink wink nudge nudge then I guess that is YOUR answer.

 

I agree that under normal circumstances you probably won't be doing much but damaging the equipment. My problem is with the various failure modes which could lead to unsafe conditions. It really comes down to what is an acceptable level of risk. Kinoflo has decided that there is too much risk involved with using their heads submerged so they do not endorse it. They do endorse using them in wet environments which I think is really good information.

 

This question has been asked before without any real answer so I am glad we finally got to the bottom of it. While we don't all agree, I think it has been a productive thread and I have learned a lot.

 

I still plan on doing some tests regarding GFCIs and kinoflo ballasts. And if anyone really wants to know the crush depth of a kino tube I will gladly take one that someone provides as deep as is necessary to find out.

 

~Jess

[timHealy]

Okay, it would seem that we have the definitive answer. The answer is no. But instead of locking this thread, it would be better to edit the replies, keep the basic information and move it to a locked Lighting FAQ forum. Same for the power Tie-in thread, because that question will be asked again and again. While Tie-ins became another heated discussion, it would be better to present some basic information along with the cautions and alternatives. To those who will argue that the information is useless, I must counter that in the East Cost/NYC metro area, it's still being done on non-union and student shoots. And the film students are probably the least qualified to attempt it.

 

For what it is worth, tie-ins are done on union shoots all the time as well. And when I shoot a student film, the only person doing a tie in is me. No students are involved. When I was a student, I never saw a student do one. But these are issues for another thread.

 

Best

 

Tim