over saturated look- Velvia 50D?

jason duncan · September 27, 2008

I ended up trying a roll of 50D and loved how it looks!!! This is the look I've been looking for outside of K40. Although I too noticed some jitter. I thought it was because the cart was still cold and my batteries were getting low.

Alessandro Machi · September 27, 2008

I ended up trying a roll of 50D and loved how it looks!!! This is the look I've been looking for outside of K40. Although I too noticed some jitter. I thought it was because the cart was still cold and my batteries were getting low.

Those two issues can cause an increase in jitter.

Ric Kemp · September 27, 2008

I ended up trying a roll of 50D and loved how it looks!!! This is the look I've been looking for outside of K40. Although I too noticed some jitter. I thought it was because the cart was still cold and my batteries were getting low.

commercial batteries are actually a huge advantage over digital re-charger battery packs, which will sink you out in the wilds, if they play out; whereas a good supply of AA's will keep you filming till the end ;)

i was taking digital stills in a church the other day, and recharged the battery the night before: half way through the shoot the battery played out. luckily i had the recharger with me, and there was a socket in the church. i left a donation [halo]

R

Ric Kemp · October 10, 2008

my own Velvia 50 test here

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wWAp1Pxv8_Q

home-transfer experiment

the film is speeded to 24-25fps then slowed back down to 18fps digitally. had to do this because the software did not like the approximate 16.67fps, reason unknown

some detail has suffered digitally but the tones are what i basically saw in my ciné editor, tending to 'pastel' as opposed to saturate

apparent frame movement is due to transfer, the original footage is frame static

using Pinnacle 9 av/dv software

thanks

R

Art Leal · October 10, 2008

my own Velvia 50 test here

A big improvement over my "jumping beans" version. Much better stability. If you don/t mind me asking, what cam did you use?

Many thanks

Ric Kemp · October 10, 2008

A big improvement over my "jumping beans" version. Much better stability. If you don/t mind me asking, what cam did you use?

Many thanks

thanks Art

all i can say is - this is not for the faint hearted

ciné camera Fuji ZC1000 / dv cam Sony Handycam HC51E; projector: customised Elmo GP-E 'dual 8'

original film @ 18fps

bought the Sony on account of its mega 40x zoom (for cropping in) but beware - this cam has no manual shutter speed control or any shutter speed data, prior to filming. am currently trying to obtain information on the default sh/speed from Sony Corporation. this is obviously an issue for ciné:dv transfer. the default shutter speed is probably 1/50th

the test image held steady to the naked eye - on the monitor - at approximately

16.67fps, but the software didn't like it, and it strobed

the best result was between 24 - 25fps on the projector: the software liked most of this - stable image - but phased here and there, remarkably fading out a section at one stage, and converting several seconds of film to negative. i have no idea why this is happening but i imagine the software is struggling to read the frames at 25fps, so i need to continue experimenting (i actually like home-made experimental movie making btw :)

if you compare this test to my first ever transfer, you will see that progress has been made; but i can well understand folks opting for pro transfers, which are always brilliant

i am certainly not encountering the over-saturated look with the Velvia 50 though?

first transfer

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=X7KLb3xbFX4

bests

Ric

Art Leal · October 10, 2008

Ric:

This camcorder lists a variable shutter from 1/50 - 1/3500. The only near decent results I have gotten with home telecining has been with camcorders who's shutter is locked at 1/60 (NTSC)..but yours would be 1/50th PAL.

I've had the same "phasing". The higher I set the shutter manually, the slower the "phasing" or dark to light swinging effect. On the highest shutter speeds, it rocks back and forth from bright to dark...very slowly. I'm guessing your shutter is set to auto, and doing so will cause it run at a faster shutter speed when more light comes in from the image being projected (shutter priority mode). So, if there's a dark scene the shutter will open to full, which should put you at 1/50th. The opposite should occur when the image has more light (say a daylight shot), in this case the shutter increases it's speed to cut down the light to not overexpose it, but doing so causes the "swing" thing, since now the shutter is running at an undetermined speed (though we know it's higher than 1/50th), and thus causing the weird dark/negative look.

On the other side of the coin, when I've set it to aperture priority, it compensates for dark images by throwing gain on it, which results in noise, but the swing effect is nowhere to be found.

As far as oversaturated, does it look oversaturated when viewing it from the projector only?

I can relate to not being for the faint-hearted. I read a comment from a reader regarding DIY telecining who wrote that having children is easier..LOL.

Hope this helps.

Ric Kemp · October 10, 2008

Ric:

This camcorder lists a variable shutter from 1/50 - 1/3500. The only near decent results I have gotten with home telecining has been with camcorders who's shutter is locked at 1/60 (NTSC)..but yours would be 1/50th PAL.

I've had the same "phasing". The higher I set the shutter manually, the slower the "phasing" or dark to light swinging effect. On the highest shutter speeds, it rocks back and forth from bright to dark...very slowly. I'm guessing your shutter is set to auto, and doing so will cause it run at a faster shutter speed when more light comes in from the image being projected (shutter priority mode). So, if there's a dark scene the shutter will open to full, which should put you at 1/50th. The opposite should occur when the image has more light (say a daylight shot), in this case the shutter increases it's speed to cut down the light to not overexpose it, but doing so causes the "swing" thing, since now the shutter is running at an undetermined speed (though we know it's higher than 1/50th), and thus causing the weird dark/negative look.

On the other side of the coin, when I've set it to aperture priority, it compensates for dark images by throwing gain on it, which results in noise, but the swing effect is nowhere to be found.

when you say 'noise' what do you mean please - unclear image, unsteady image, or something else?

As far as oversaturated, does it look oversaturated when viewing it from the projector only?

I can relate to not being for the faint-hearted. I read a comment from a reader regarding DIY telecining who wrote that having children is easier..LOL.

[ :)) ]

Hope this helps.

hi Art,

yes it helps - but although i am not totally disatisfied with the test, what you say concerning fully auto shutter speeds (default) could be my worst nightmare :-o i wonder if by choosing one of the 'modes' i could hit on the 1/50 [if only Sony had told us which mode was which shutter speed? even they don't appear to know [groan]

failing all i guess i could go back to the Canon MV830i and fit it with a magnifyer filter, if they make them dv-cam sized? i only got the Sony cos i could crop right in with its zoom

there is something very weird with this set up, in that, when i transferred with the Canon, what you saw on the monitor was what you got in the transfer; with the Sony i was getting good results on the monitor but they'd turned to slow strobe in the software playback. i got round this by speeding the film right up to (at least) 25fps, but that speed - though not excessive - started to confuse either the Sony cam or the software ... in retrospect, that must have been the cam going bananas, the software was just recording it; if the cam is trying to match 25 frames per second with auto shutter speeds, no wonder it is left spinning in circles?

yes, it would be UK 1/50 PAL, and on the Canon i can select this, but i lose the extra zoom crop

need to think about this one :-|

Re. 'oversaturated' - the Velvia 50 (tone) processed film, looks quite similar to what you see in the test, it does not do the saturated colour thing on me; not sure why, i strove to expose it optimally all the while; there is some loss of brightness overall, but this is due to the transfer

many thanks

Ric

Art Leal · October 11, 2008

Hi Ric:

Here's a few samples of a scene with different shutter speeds. The first id 1/60, with the variable speed set to no flicker (which I've been told should be close to 20fps). With this speed constant, only the shutter speed on the camcorder was adjusted. My projector is a three blade model.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irv2sALwHxo&fmt=6

What I meant by "noise" is the big grains you get in video when shooting low light scenes with a videocam (also called artifacting and sometimes "mosquito" noise).

I have an older Sony Digital 8 camcorder which I had "hacked" by someone who plugged it into an EPROM and opened up features not normally available in this model such as zebra stripes, manual white balance and a few others. The gentleman who did this also supplied me with a sheet you might find useful..especially the "Low Light Tips" section, which describes how to trick the camcorder into locking the shutter speed. It works on mine, but can't guarantee it will for yours. It's a list of general commonalities found with the consumer type Sony handhelds. There's also a section describing what each of the exposure presets mean (ie Spotlight, Portrait, etc)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30330913@N08/2931139364

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30330913@N08/2930279621

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30330913@N08/2931139308

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30330913@N08/2930279585

Best of luck with your telecining, keep me posted I'll give it another try soon with the Velvia.

Ric Kemp · October 11, 2008

Hi Art,

Hi Ric:

Here's a few samples of a scene with different shutter speeds. The first is 1/60, with the variable speed set to no flicker (which I've been told should be close to 20fps). With this speed constant, only the shutter speed on the camcorder was adjusted. My projector is a three blade model.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irv2sALwHxo&fmt=6

that is very helpful and instructive to watch - i imagine the slight frame unsteadiness in the first clip is more to do with the ciné set up than the transfer? beautiful footage :) imho

regarding the speed - you are going to be NTSC i think, which will change things slightly between us - what speed is your original K40 ciné film fimed at though: 25, 24, 18fps? This will also have a bearing on gaining or losing 'flicker' i think?

What I meant by "noise" is the big grains you get in video when shooting low light scenes with a videocam (also called artifacting and sometimes "mosquito" noise).

oh right, the image deterioration in 'night mode' you sometimes get

I have an older Sony Digital 8 camcorder which I had "hacked" by someone who plugged it into an EPROM and opened up features not normally available in this model such as zebra stripes, manual white balance and a few others.

slap wrists [lol]

The gentleman who did this also supplied me with a sheet you might find useful..especially the "Low Light Tips" section, which describes how to trick the camcorder into locking the shutter speed. It works on mine, but can't guarantee it will for yours. It's a list of general commonalities found with the consumer type Sony handhelds. There's also a section describing what each of the exposure presets mean (ie Spotlight, Portrait, etc)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30330913@N08/2931139364

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30330913@N08/2930279621

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30330913@N08/2931139308

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30330913@N08/2930279585

Best of luck with your telecining, keep me posted I'll give it another try soon with the Velvia.

thanks, i've looked at these, but i think the Sony will drive me nuts considering all the variables which already exist in dv-ciné transfers; am going back to my Canon for a while, which can at least fix a speed, if not give me the zoom-crop i'm after

i've approached this the wrong way, of course, which is typical of me - instead of trying out one unknown, i've been testing out untried -

projector

ciné camera

film stock

dv cam

all at the same time :-o

however, the projector ~ Elmo GP-E ~ is a vast improvement on my original Chinon 8811, which jumped the film / lost its film loop every 30 seconds, just when you'd got everything set up perfect, the loop went :o this does not happen with the Elmo: there's little doubt that waiting for one of the later projectors is a good move, they are much more reliable than the pre- and 1970's models i think?

thanks again ;)

Ric

Ric Kemp · October 12, 2008

the subject of this thread has been troubling me so i uploaded another Velvia test, same film, same camera, deeper colours, no idea why?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kRZCm1NO0mc

this film was captured with a Canon MV830i mini dv cam which allows you to select up to half-a-dozen shutter speeds with ease, here it was 1/50

no idea what speed the projector is running at - the variable speed dial suggests 24fps but the film motion suggests nearer 18fps, and yes, some of this footage is actually slow motion filmed with the ZC-1000

bests

Ric

ps. why do some uploads go into *mega pixel mode* whilst others do the opposite - is it something to do with internet connection speeds, please?