Movies to to watch/think about on the 4th of July

[Tim O'Connor]

A movie that I think told a good story while making a good point about eroding freedoms in the USA is "The Contender" which had tagline ""Sometimes you can assassinate a leader without firing a shot."

 

For those of you who are going to take some time to think about the meaning of the Declaration of Independence this 4th of July, what is a movie that you might choose if you wanted to watch something that has some relevance to the ideas celebrated on the 4th of July?

[Chris Keth]

A good patriotic favorite of mine is "Glory."

[Guest]

I like that English movie, "Benedict Arnold: A Real Hero."

 

R,

[Chris Keth]

I like that English movie, "Benedict Arnold: A Real Hero."

 

R,

 

Or the Canadian flick, "Canada: England's Momma's Boy." :lol:

[Guest]

Or the Canadian flick, "Canada: England's Momma's Boy." :lol:

 

I've never seen that one.

 

I have however watched, "Canada: America's Bitch."

 

R,

[Tim O'Connor]

I like that English movie, "Benedict Arnold: A Real Hero."

 

R,

 

 

 

Ha. If it weren't for the USA you'd all be speaking English... instead of Canadianese or whatever it is you do speak.

[Guest]

Ha. If it weren't for the USA you'd all be speaking English... instead of Canadianese or whatever it is you do speak.

 

You're not far from the truth, I still don't know what language they speak in Newfoundland? :blink:

 

R,

[James Steven Beverly]

A movie that I think told a good story while making a good point about eroding freedoms in the USA is "The Contender" which had tagline ""Sometimes you can assassinate a leader without firing a shot."

 

For those of you who are going to take some time to think about the meaning of the Declaration of Independence this 4th of July, what is a movie that you might choose if you wanted to watch something that has some relevance to the ideas celebrated on the 4th of July?

Weeelllll, nothing says "HOLIDAY" like a movie about eroding freedoms but since I feel this 8 year national nightmare is soon to end and I feel only hope for own future I'm gonna recommend a few less "lock yourself in the bathroom and slit your wrists" kinda movies:

 

1776 (1972)

 

The Patriot (2000)

 

Yankee Doodle Dandy (1942)

 

Mr. Smith Goes to Washington (1939)

 

Hair (1979)

 

Saving Private Ryan (1998)

 

Young Mr. Lincoln (1939)

 

The Grapes of Wrath (1940)

 

Amistad (1997)

 

Good Night, and Good Luck. (2005)

 

The Insider (1999)

 

Wall Street (1987)

 

Born on the Fourth of July (1989)

 

Norma Rae (1979)

 

The Americanization of Emily (1964)

 

Apollo 13 (1995)

 

Glory (1989)

 

The Right Stuff (1983)

 

Jefferson in Paris (1995)

 

The Good Shepherd (2006)

 

The Longest Day (1962)

 

All the President's Men (1976)

 

Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (1964)

 

Rally 'Round the Flag, Boys! (1958)

 

Easy Rider (1969)

 

Three Days of the Condor (1975)

 

Enemy of the State (1998)

 

The Tuskegee Airmen (1995)

 

Little Big Man (1970)

 

Dances with Wolves (1990)

[Guest]

For July 4th and your "I feel only hope for own future."??????? :blink: :blink:

 

The Patriot (2000)

 

This was just a typical Hollywood flag waving piece of mumbo jumbo, come on! The bad British guy gets impaled by the American flag in the end, was that intended as a live action take on the Simpsons or Family Guy?

 

Dances with Wolves (1990)

 

Again, joking right? The best part of this movie was the SNL spoof, "Dirty Dances With Wolves." If you didn't see it your imagination can fill in the blanks.

 

Wall Street (1987)

 

What does this have to do with July 4th?

 

Oh James I love to jerk your chain, please respond with one of your famous massive blocks of text with no paragraphs :D

 

R,

[James Steven Beverly]

Gee Richie maybe you're right, Flag waving on the 4th of July, how in-appropriate! How could I include a movie about patriotism like The Patriot on a national holiday honoring patriotism, I must be an idiot. :rolleyes:

 

Of COURSE I'm optimistic about the future of America, In fact sing it along with me:

 

Ding Dong the Bush is gone, the moron Bush, the brain-dead Bush

Ding dong the Dumbass Bush is gone.

HI HO the Merryo sing it high and sing it low,

Ding Dong the rotten Bush is gone.

After 8 years he''s got to go YO HOOOO, HO HO HO HO, HO HOOOOO, HO HO HO HO HO, HO HO, HO HO HO OH

Ding Dong the the moron's GONE

The Bad old Bush

The Evil Bush

Ding Dong the A**h*le Bush is gone !!!!!!

 

and come November we will have the first Black president in the history of the United States, a man who is NOT a complete moronic fascist religious zealot imbecile and who may at least show some small amount of decorum and aptitude for the office. I find that positively inspirational.

 

Now as for Dances with Wolves, I believe we should not only remember the ideals our nation is suppose to stand for but also those dark moments in our history where we failed to live up to those ideals so they are never forgotten and we try to do better in the future. The American Indian situation was one such dark failure, which is why I also included Little Big Man.

 

As for including Wall Street, we've just been through 8 years of greed and corruption and I personally believe the only thing that can destroy the US is not terrorists or wars or a few bad leaders, I believe the greatest the greatest threat to freedom is un-restrained capitalism and Wall Street is about just that, to quote a line from the movie "Greed is good, Greed works", too many people in this country think that way now and that worries me.

 

I might also include along those lines Network and Citizen Kane as movies to see on the 4th of July because the news services should be the watchdogs of government and freedom in this nation but now, all to often, profit is the the most important thing in journalism rather than content and that is a dangerous trend.

 

I hope I didn't include too many paragraphs for you to enjoy my ravings buddy. :D

[Freya Black]

For July 4th and your "I feel only hope for own future."??????? :blink: :blink:

 

The Patriot (2000)

 

This was just a typical Hollywood flag waving piece of mumbo jumbo, come on! The bad British guy gets impaled by the American flag in the end, was that intended as a live action take on the Simpsons or Family Guy?

 

Oh really! How awful. That poor british boy!

 

...but what is special about the 4th July exactly?

 

love

 

Freya

[Guest]

Oh really! How awful. That poor british boy!

 

...but what is special about the 4th July exactly?

 

love

 

Freya

 

Oh boy you really know how to open the can of worms!

 

On July 4th the Americans celebrate their independence from their mother country, England. This after fighting a 5-6 year war paid for by the French government.

 

It's always been a baffling piece of history for us Canadians, why didn't the Americans just ask the British government for independence like we did?

 

In any event Canada still retains the queen as our head of state, and I'm very happy about that. She brings more class and flair to the position than any idiot politician ever could. I'd be happy to have her back in complete charge of the country.

 

R,

[Guest]

and come November we will have the first Black president in the history of the United States,

 

I hope you are right, but I'm not so sure?

 

Will a nation that is 75% white vote for a black president? That is the big question to be answered. Like I said, I hope you're right.

 

R,

[Guest]

Actually here is the IFC list on the same subject:

 

http://www.ifc.com/film/film-news/2008/07/...-ten-bitter.php

 

James Steven Beverly picked several matches.

 

R,

[Tom Lowe]

These lists are leaving off the work of Terrence Malick. :( When I think of Badlands, Days of Heaven, The Thin Red Line and The New World, there are no films more American than these. To me, a film like Saving Private Ryan is sort of the Walmart version of "patriotism" - simple, canned, literally with flags waving on the screen.

 

Another 'all American" film is Legends of the Fall (showing the American spirit of family and rugged individualism) at a time before we started sending our military around the world to "help others." I like how the patriarch in Legends of the Fall (Anthony Hopkins) has the old-school American ideas about minding our own business and not meddling in foreign lands. That used to be the "conservative" position. It also shows the adventuresome, family-oriented, can-do spirit of those who headed out west and relied on themselves.

Edited July 5, 2008 by Tom Lowe

[Tim O'Connor]

Oh boy you really know how to open the can of worms!

 

On July 4th the Americans celebrate their independence from their mother country, England. This after fighting a 5-6 year war paid for by the French government.

 

It's always been a baffling piece of history for us Canadians, why didn't the Americans just ask the British government for independence like we did?

 

In any event Canada still retains the queen as our head of state, and I'm very happy about that. She brings more class and flair to the position than any idiot politician ever could. I'd be happy to have her back in complete charge of the country.

 

R,

 

 

 

Independence Day is a federal holiday in the U.S.A. celebrating the adoption of the Declaration of Independence. While this document does in fact declare

this country to be independent from English rule, I think that we celebrate far more the ideas of freedom expressed in the document.

 

Yes, the U.S. threw off the rule of King George but the real importance is the idea that people can throw off the rule of any oppressor. I think about that

more than about anything against England.

 

 

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

 

Also:

 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

 

 

Regarding asking for independence, the colonists felt that they couldn't even get fair treatment as subjects of the Crown after a lot of asking for

smaller things than a divorce.

 

There are some specific remarks about this.

 

"In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people."

 

"They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends."

 

 

 

Also, I believe that the great idea that "all men are created equal" means that all people, of all genders and colors and everything else, are included

in this belief and that "all men" serves in this sentence the way that say "mankind" has often been used.

 

The USA hasn't been perfect and it's taken a long time to get closer to the application of treating all people fairly and equally but still, the Fourth of July is a great day to celebrate the notion that no people should have to live under tyranny and that everybody has the right to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

 

 

I believe that this philosophy has a great importance for every filmmaker every day.

[Guest]

For many people in the USA though throwing off the British crown was really just an example of Orwell's point in Animal Farm. The people threw off one yoke of tyranny only to be bound by another.

 

The new US gov't did nothing to lessen the hardships faced by black slaves, women, or Indian tribes. In the case of blacks they would have been better off under British rule. The British allowed American blacks to fight in their army during the Revolutionary War and promised freedom to any that joined. Many did.

 

After all it was a better deal than picking cotton and being whipped by some American colonist. The "life, liberty, & pursuit of happiness" looked good on paper, but it only applied to such a small minority of Americans.

 

Now in 2008 the current US gov't seems to be regressing when one considers the daily abuses of the Geneva Convention being carried out by US soldiers, & the horrors of Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib prison.

 

This July 4th should for Americans really be about asking the question of what the country truly believes and stands for. America appears to be caught in a Catch 22, on the one hand it wants to be viewed by the world as the beacon of freedom and liberty. Then on the other hand, it wants the right to commit human rights abuses around the world.

 

R,

[K Borowski]

For many people in the USA though throwing off the British crown was really just an example of Orwell's point in Animal Farm. The people threw off one yoke of tyranny only to be bound by another.

 

The new US gov't did nothing to lessen the hardships faced by black slaves, women, or Indian tribes. In the case of blacks they would have been better off under British rule. The British allowed American blacks to fight in their army during the Revolutionary War and promised freedom to any that joined. Many did.

 

After all it was a better deal than picking cotton and being whipped by some American colonist. The "life, liberty, & pursuit of happiness" looked good on paper, but it only applied to such a small minority of Americans.

 

Now in 2008 the current US gov't seems to be regressing when one considers the daily abuses of the Geneva Convention being carried out by US soldiers, & the horrors of Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib prison.

 

This July 4th should for Americans really be about asking the question of what the country truly believes and stands for. America appears to be caught in a Catch 22, on the one hand it wants to be viewed by the world as the beacon of freedom and liberty. Then on the other hand, it wants the right to commit human rights abuses around the world.

 

R,

 

Common Richard. Put a scared 20 y.o. in a horrid environment where his friends are getting blown up, beheaded, and shot, and you don't understand why some of them make bad decisions?

 

These acts are exceptions to the rule.

 

The United States is not some lawless, redneck entity run by a bunch of corrupt, stupid, politicians that everyone makes it out to be.

 

I personally feel that relatives of former presidents (including wives) should not themselves be allowed to run for president.

 

That would have prevented John Quincy Adams, George W. Bush, and Hillary Clinton from basically furthering their predecessor's policies.

 

It is basically circumventing the 8 year limit.

 

 

And is Canada really so much more civilized than we are? Imagining if Canada's population grew by 20 times, how much more difficult to govern your country would be.

 

For all the terrible evils perpetuated by the United States, we have defended the world from evil in two World Wars, combatted and brought about the downfall of communism in Europe, South America, and Asia, and landed man on the moon.

 

Oh, and we have single-handedly been fighting the evils of the metric system since the 1970s :P

 

So we have our faults, but we have our strengths as well. The United States Constitution has served as a model of democracy in the modern world. As with all things that look good on paper, they are more difficult to put into practice than to write down, but we are, as all things, a work in progress. We will learn from our mistakes and they will make us stronger.

[Guest]

Oh I think the United States has contributed a lot to the world and done a lot of good at times.

 

But for frankly those of us who are educated about America's past and present condition, we simply don't buy into the "we are the greatest" hype that the USA is famous for promoting.

 

For example you make a typically mis-informed American statement that I heard many times while living in the USA for five years:

 

"we have defended the world from evil in two World Wars,"

 

This is 100% false, sorry. The USA barely made any contributions to WWI. The war started in 1914, the US didn't even declare war on Germany until April 6, 1917!! The whole thing was over on Nov 11, 1918.

 

WWII is a whole different story, again, the US sits out the first two years of the war.

 

This is your idea of "we have defended the world from evil in two World Wars" :blink:

 

So you see those of us with educated view points simply refuse to believe the typical American hype.

 

As for:

 

"And is Canada really so much more civilized than we are? Imagining if Canada's population grew by 20 times, how much more difficult to govern your country would be."

 

Actually Canada is a much more difficult country to govern. It is constantly pulled apart by regional differences and the federal gov't is far weaker than the US federal gov't. Plus Canada has one province that is basically a country within the country and has held two referendums on whether or not they should separate from Canada.

 

How many US states are holding referendums on whether or not they should leave the union?

 

 

R,

[K Borowski]

Oh I think the United States has contributed a lot to the world and done a lot of good at times.

 

But for frankly those of us who are educated about America's past and present condition, we simply don't buy into the "we are the greatest" hype that the USA is famous for promoting.

 

For example you make a typically mis-informed American statement that I heard many times while living in the USA for five years:

 

"we have defended the world from evil in two World Wars,"

 

This is 100% false, sorry. The USA barely made any contributions to WWI. The war started in 1914, the US didn't even declare war on Germany until April 6, 1917!! The whole thing was over on Nov 11, 1918.

 

WWII is a whole different story, again, the US sits out the first two years of the war.

 

This is your idea of "we have defended the world from evil in two World Wars" :blink:

 

So you see those of us with educated view points simply refuse to believe the typical American hype.

 

As for:

 

"And is Canada really so much more civilized than we are? Imagining if Canada's population grew by 20 times, how much more difficult to govern your country would be."

 

Actually Canada is a much more difficult country to govern. It is constantly pulled apart by regional differences and the federal gov't is far weaker than the US federal gov't. Plus Canada has one province that is basically a country within the country and has held two referendums on whether or not they should separate from Canada.

 

How many US states are holding referendums on whether or not they should leave the union?

 

 

R,

 

World War I tipped in favor of the Allies with the United States' entrance into it. That is commonly accepted interpretation by many prominent historical authorities.

 

Did I once say that the U.S. was the greatest country in the world? We may be the militarily mightiest, or the world's biggest economy, but that in no way makes us the greatest, except militarily and economically. I a;gree that "God Bless the USA, the greatest country in the world" is a bunch of redneck bullsh it. This is certainly a great country to live in for a lot of people, but it is a miserable country to live in for others, and that we are the best at everything is certainly a delusion at best, propaganda at worst. We certainly aren't, overall, the smartest country in the world, in fact almost the exact opposite.

 

I say we have contributed greatly to the World, and our system of government is now a model for most modern democracies.

 

I said it before, and I will say it again; we have our problems. The United States' disregard for the environment, for land conservation, for population control is frightening. Our overconsumption of gasoline, natural resources, electronics, consumables, is similarly frightening. Our widening gap between the haves and have nots is frightening.

 

And yes, US states have held referendums on leaving the Union. Ever heard of the Civil War?

[James Steven Beverly]

You know who the most critical people of the United States are, Richie? The Americans. It was Americans who leaked information about the the abuses at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib to the press because it was wrong and very UN-American. We criticize ourselves constantly and that is perhaps our greatest strength, we're constantly trying to make this country better and THAT'S why many of us truly believe we are a great nation.

 

Take WW1 for example, because of trench warfare, WW1 had been in stalemate for 3 years until a massive influx of American troops broke that stalemate and overwhelmed German forces And yes, the war ended a less than a year later so I would say our contribution was massive and decisive. Without it thousands more on both sides would have died in a stupid useless war that NEVER should have been started in the first place.

 

As for sitting out of WW2 for 2 years, had England and France been reasonable at the negotiating table in the League Of Nations, WW2 would have never happened! Wilson tried his DAMNEDEST to help build a better, more enlightened world through the League of Nations and all England and France were interested in was revenge. Well they got it. They insisted on Germany bearing a yoke no nation could survive under and result was the Nazis, They reaped what they had sown, so it's QUITE understandable why the American people hesitated to be drawn into another European conflict after being burned so badly in the last.

 

Those two wars where the European's fault, the culmination of centuries of infighting and petty squabbles, however though the Europeans started them, thank your lucky stars the Yanks were there to put an end to them and after the second world war under the Marshall Plan re-build Europe and though the United Nations make it a better, more enlighten world to live it. So I think our contribution was fair enough under the circumstances.

 

Oh and as far as electing a Black president in a country that's 70% white, not even a QUESTION in my mind. We've had enough of this conservative horsesh*t and the one, SINGLE thing you never EVER want to do is piss off the people of the United States of America because we WILL do something about it! It's just plain NOT the issue it used to be less than 20 years ago, with is also one of the reasons I have nothing but hope for our nation's future. We have shown time and time again the ability to overcome evil even in ourselves. We may not quite be that shining beacon we try so hard to be yet but we'll get there, perhaps slowly, but surely and inevitably. B)

Edited July 6, 2008 by James Steven Beverly

[Guest]

And yes, US states have held referendums on leaving the Union. Ever heard of the Civil War?

 

Ok a referendum is when people use the ballot box and vote, a civil war is when people kill each other with guns. The US has never had a "referendum" on a state leaving the union.

 

 

SINGLE thing you never EVER want to do is piss off the people of the United States of America because we WILL do something about it!

 

Then what is the explanation for Americans electing Bush to a SECOND term in office? I understand that he stole the first election and got fewer votes than Gore. But how do you explain his SECOND election victory????????

 

The entire planet wants to know.

 

R,

[Tim O'Connor]

These are all fascinating discussions and I hope that we'll see more films telling stories that also manage to

reflect or comment upon the serious issues facing a nation that ostensibly lives by the great ideals that are celebrated on

the Fourth of July and yet often falls short of them, just as every country and every person falls short of ideals.

 

Nonetheless, as Browning wrote, "A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?"

 

I think that if I can make any contribution to society it will be through telling stories. I'm not a hard scientist but I have been deeply

affected by the consciousness raising effect of many great and not great but still good films that I have seen.

 

Look at some of Oliver Stone's films, "Salvador", "Platoon", "JFK". To me, there is such greatness in the scene in which Richard Boyle

goes off on General Hyde and asks him if training death squads is really what the US should be doing.

 

That same message might get lost in a dreary semon or essay in some periodical on the back shelves of the library. I love the USA but I think

of that scene from "Salvador" often.

 

Great ideals are expressed in the Declaration of Independence. I wish there were more movies with compelling stories to interest the many people

I see who had no interest in discussing the meaning of the Fourth of July for even five minutes with me. Many of them don't read, don't watch documentaries, don't watch the news or enough of it to consider its accuracy. I think that movies are a great way to reach people.

 

I'm not saying that all movies must have high moral aims. I certainly like screwball comedies or for a more contemporary term perhaps, simple dumb movies. I'm not disparaging those movies that simply aim to make people laugh. That's great. They make me feel good. They help me recharge.

 

It's just that films take soooo long to make that I want mine, when I get to make them, to say something about this country and this world that could be so great and should be so peaceful.

 

 

And another thing! It's often been discussed on here that a 50mm lens may not even be 50mm. It could be 47mm or 52mm.

 

Please, stop the madness. The metric system taunts us. A kilometer is supposed to be so cool but it's 6/10, er 3/5, of a mile. Does that seem like an ideal system? Does that make sense?

 

I'm worked up. I'm going to go run several furlongs.

[Guest]

"Please, stop the madness. The metric system taunts us. A kilometer is supposed to be so cool but it's 6/10, er 3/5, of a mile. Does that seem like an ideal system? Does that make sense?"

 

He he, one day America will join the rest of the planet and adopt the metric system.

 

Can you work out how many feet are in 3 3/4 miles in your head right now? GO!

 

How many meters are in 3 3/4 kilometers....3750. Oh that was hard :D

[Tim O'Connor]

"Please, stop the madness. The metric system taunts us. A kilometer is supposed to be so cool but it's 6/10, er 3/5, of a mile. Does that seem like an ideal system? Does that make sense?"

 

He he, one day America will join the rest of the planet and adopt the metric system.

 

Can you work out how many feet are in 3 3/4 miles in your head right now? GO!

 

How many meters are in 3 3/4 kilometers....3750. Oh that was hard :D

 

As President Kennedy said about going to the moon, "We do these things not because they are easy but because they are hard."

 

 

 

Another good movie for the Fourth of July (or anytime anybody anywhere wants to see a system designed to be fair in protecting civil rights depicted with its virtues and its flaws) is "12 Angry Men" . I'm pretty sure that it was first a teleplay in the 1950s and then jumped to the big screen,

although it takes place mostly in one room. It's an exciting story of how a trial by jury can fail and can work. It's so great because the hero, played by Henry Fonda, is a regular guy who thinks that the system ought to be followed in order to be fair, and as that develops the story, the film shows how

regular people can fall out of fear but get up and do the right thing.