Self Distribution

[GeorgeSelinsky]

I have to say Richard I think you really did a great job with your self distribution gig.

 

Based on my observations and assumptions, I believe you had two things playing on your side that I don't. First, you have a film that isn't too hard to market, horror is a fairly universal genre that many can appreciate. Second, you were doing this in Canada where I'm assuming the competition for screen space isn't as intense as in New York City (where I am), where there are 8 million viewers that distributors are fighting over.

 

I wanted to add to my heap questions, if your patience is so great, how many theaters were you able to manage to squeeze in? How did you get through to the bookers/owners, cold calling? Was it easy getting paid? Did you count the house? How much of your daily time was devoted to the screenings and dealing with the press, etc? How much time should someone budget for that - rough approx?

 

Thanks again!

Edited July 6, 2008 by GeorgeSelinsky

[Guest]

I have to say Richard I think you really did a great job with your self distribution gig.

 

Based on my observations and assumptions, I believe you had two things playing on your side that I don't. First, you have a film that isn't too hard to market, horror is a fairly universal genre that many can appreciate. Second, you were doing this in Canada where I'm assuming the competition for screen space isn't as intense as in New York City (where I am), where there are 8 million viewers that distributors are fighting over.

 

I wanted to add to my heap questions, if your patience is so great, how many theaters were you able to manage to squeeze in? How did you get through to the bookers/owners, cold calling? Was it easy getting paid? Did you count the house? How much of your daily time was devoted to the screenings and dealing with the press, etc? How much time should someone budget for that - rough approx?

 

Thanks again!

 

Well the screen inventory in Canada is just a small fraction of the USA, and only 1% of movies on the big screen in Canada are Canadian. American films make up the other 99%. Those are the odds I was facing.

 

Yes just call up the theater owners, there is always an office number on their site. If not visit the the theater and ask to see the manager in person. Quickly whip out your art work or trailer on a small DVD player. Do NOT ask if he wants to see it, assume that he does. 9/10 people won't say hey no I don't want to see it.

 

Yes getting paid is easy, I was given cash after every show, it doesn't get easier than that. Certainly plan on making your self available full time for the theatrical screening.

 

If you're in NYC you can book your movie into the Pioneer Theater on a four wall set up. They do this on a regular basis. You'll have to pay for the theater but you take 100% of the gate. They will put your film on their website, you'll get the marquee, plus all the free perks that come with having a movie screen in NYC. They can screen digitally you don't need a 35mm print.

 

You call Phil Hartman at 212-777-2668. Yes it will cost money, but you'll make some back and you're guaranteed the big screen in NYC.

 

Phil will give you tips on who the press friendly people are to talk to.

 

Now it is generally accepted that you should try and book your movie outside of NYC first. Pick some smaller cities close to NYC and run there on Friday and Saturday nights for 3-4 weeks before you land in NYC.

 

R,

[Justin Hayward]

It's such common knowledge that indie films like this don't reveal their budget, I'm wasting my typing fingers typing this.

[Matthew W. Phillips]

It's such common knowledge that indie films like this don't reveal their budget, I'm wasting my typing fingers typing this.

 

Justin, did you have any point whatsoever in this post or do you just like to see yourself type? I asked a serious question and not one person has given me a decent answer. I asked "what negative effects can come about by disclosing your budget?" and all I've gotten is a bunch of ridiculous replies about how distributors treat you differently if they think your film is low budget. With all due respect, you are not fooling anyone anyway. It's not like people are going to look at your film and be like "Wow, this looks like Prince Caspian." Get real.

 

Richard, I am asking you to help me by letting me know what the true dangers are of revealing one's budget. I ask sincerly so I don't continue to make an "error" since I've had no problems in the past of disclosing my project budgets. Maybe I shouldn't do that but it would be nice to know why.

 

Justin, don't insult this forum by putting up pointless condescending posts. People come here to share and learn a great number of things. If you can't contribute to substantive content, then don't bother...or if you must post things that aren't substantive, go to the Red boards.

[Christopher Santucci]

Richard, I am asking you to help me by letting me know what the true dangers are of revealing one's budget. I ask sincerly so I don't continue to make an "error" since I've had no problems in the past of disclosing my project budgets. Maybe I shouldn't do that but it would be nice to know why.

 

 

I think Richard gave the budget away in another older thread...

 

.

[GeorgeSelinsky]

The reason people don't disclose budgets when they make a film that's meant to be acquired for distribution is simple. It's all a part of the negotiations game.

 

If Richard came out and said "Guys, believe it or not I got it in the can for $24,000", the distributor isn't going to jump and say "Wow, you resourceful genius you!". He's going to turn around and say to his buddies "Okay, now we know this guy paid very little for this, so we've got a lot of room to cut him down on the deal."

 

Also, a future producer or production company can also view him as a guy who is good with micro budgets and just pen him in that category, "Yeah, so you shot your last one for $24K, so you should do just fine if we give you twice that, right?" This also concerns Richard's actors. If he throws a budget on the table to the public, other producers can say "Oh, so she works for that little? Good to know in the future, we can get her cheap". Actors don't like that because it ruins their marketability and image. Nobody wants to be known as the cheapo charlie.

 

Bottom line, there are good reasons for keeping tabs on that sort of information. And I'm absolutely positive Richard didn't do it for as little as $24K!

 

Btw Richard, thanks for the Pioneer suggestion. They apparently don't have HD projection however. Darn, I wish I had a 35mm print! But I can't justify that economically, unfortunately :(

[GeorgeSelinsky]

For those who are wondering how low you can go, all you need to do is some math.

 

First, you need to find out how much on stock and processing you can spend. A 5:1 ratio I'd say is a very bare minimum. 7:1 is more like what you need to begin having some flexibility editing wise. Call up and find the price for short ends, then check lab book rates for developing and knock off a few cents a foot because when you do a big job you get a discount.

 

Then you have to calculate final transfer costs, mastering, and so on.

 

Anything after that, it's already possible to get pro bono or very cheap if you know the right people. People who have connections with camera houses can get killer packages for very little sometimes (or maybe you already own a package yourself). Actors can work free. Crew can work free. You just need to give them something, like profit points, and a hot meal. You can get free locations if you have the right connections, same concerns wardrobe. You can edit on any decent PC with a separate hard drive, and believe it or not Adobe Premiere does a really good job.

 

Once the unavoidable expenses are accounted for, it comes down to who you have relationships with and how well you can strike a deal, as well as how good you are at coming up with slick solutions. That involves ingenuity, experience, and luck.

 

So at a certain point, the question really becomes "How clever and lucky were you?" For example, Richard had luck going for him in a few places, he knew some media people that helped him get TV exposure, he found a designer who set him up with an expensive customized dress, etc. At the same time, you can tell this wasn't his first feature that he's been involved in. He definitely knew what he was doing.

 

I think it's pointless to worry about budgets, really. They are all very specific animals. There is no rule of thumb. I mean, it's obvious you're not going to be able to shoot a Roman epic in VistaVision for under $50K using your friends on weekends. But really there's so much variability within any given genre. You film all your outdoor scenes without a permit - over $1000 in insurance saved. You run on the subway with a camera for one day, no permit - you've just saved $2500 in insurance fees and all the necessary hassle. Your friend has a restaurant - you can film without having to pay him for it. Your other friend owns a car dealership, you can get a nice used car to film in for a day. Your dad owns an assault rifle, great - another prop you don't have to pay for (just don't you dare point that at an actor, even if it's unloaded!). You meet a super talented actor who is just getting started and willing to work for nothing - great, you've just saved another item in your budget. You don't get so lucky - you have to pay for it all.

 

What is important is to learn all the cost saving tricks that smart producers use. Roger Corman belates a lot of interesting tricks he's used. That includes things like getting a neighbor who wanted to be bribed to shut off his sprinklers during a shoot to cooperate by asking the guy "Could you turn them higher please, we like the effect they have on the lighting".

[Guest]

I think Richard gave the budget away in another older thread...

 

.

 

I most certainly did not.

 

R,

[James Steven Beverly]

Hey Richie, I'm not going to ask you about your budget 'cause as you say, it's pretty much irrelevant, what I am gonna ask you about is your "leg work" costs. I'm assuming you flew out for meetings with these theater owners, your artwork costs (you don't have to be specific, a general price range one might expect is sufficient) ect. ect. ect. the kinda costs one might expect to encounter promoting a feature for theatrical release. The thing I'm most impressed by is that you didn't have a star (or even a name actor for that matter) attached only that chick from Deal or No Deal and there's like 50 of those girls on that show so gorgeous as she is, from a promotional standpoint, I really can't see her being a any kind of a draw to an audience (except for her obvious good looks and once they're in the theater, THEN her talent). I, myself am looking to hire an older star for 3 days in a major supporting role that will be cut in through out the film ( basic indy stuff) to kinda help securing distribution IF I can afford the guy I'm looking at, but I'm also impressed you were able to make a 50/50 deal considering that you DIDN'T have a star. Was this 50/50 deal essentially only in Canada or in the beginning, were you able to make some deals here in the States? If it's only in Canada and 99% of all films released in Canada are made in the USA, maybe I should try and get my film released in Canada first :D .

 

Another thing I wanted to ask, back in the day when I asked you if you planned to try for a theatrical release after you had secured a release (I'm assuming foreign market or DVD) you pretty much just scoffed, was this a marketing thing because you were in negotiations because you didn't want anyone to know what was going on OR did you look into self distribution and decide it could be done and go for it? I'm just curios because I have no doubt, when I finish making Blood Moon Rising, I'm gonna have to do a lot of the same things you did to get it out there. I figured I'd have to either get a distributer interested or 4 wall it. I'm REAL impressed you managed to make a 50/50 deal with so many theater owners. I've been a salesman since I was in my teens and even owned a phone sales business so this is a challenge I actually look forward to. Other than the stuff you already mentioned (which is good advice BTW) what other tips can you share? Thanks-Steve

[Guest]

I can answer your questions once you admit that Canada saved the world in both world wars....kidding ;)

 

My thoughts below.

 

 

Hey Richie, I'm not going to ask you about your budget 'cause as you say, it's pretty much irrelevant, what I am gonna ask you about is your "leg work" costs. I'm assuming you flew out for meetings with these theater owners,

 

I stayed in Ontario where I am based. Canada is unique in that 45% of the population lives in Ontario, so I was at ground zero already. I screened in Toronto of course which is a huge media market, not just for Canada but also as an international film city.

 

The USA would be much more difficult to cover. I would hit NYC for sure, then LA, Miami, Chicago if you can afford it.

 

your artwork costs (you don't have to be specific, a general price range one might expect is sufficient) ect. ect. ect.

 

I used Kaiser Communications in LA for all of the artwork. Movie art is all they do. I can't reveal my costs because David Kaiser asked me not to, I swung a deal like I always do. What ever you do, don't scrimp here, your movie will be judged on the art.

 

 

the kinda costs one might expect to encounter promoting a feature for theatrical release.

 

Ok expect to pay for a few newspaper display ads if you don't land any free ink. Keep copies of the ads you take out in the papers, you're gonna need em to show buyers. You'll need 26X40 posters, I printed a short run for $65.00 each on a big hi-res printer. You must have a web site for the movie that shows the trailer, etc etc. You won't have money for TV spots so use the web, it's free. Make sure your trailer is on YouTUBE, also, free. Use on-line event promotion sites where you can list your movie for free. Just Google these, I found they worked very well and allow you to target each city.

 

I would only use theaters that project digitally unless you have a hit on your hands. 35mm prints will blow any indie budget right out the door.

 

The thing I'm most impressed by is that you didn't have a star (or even a name actor for that matter) attached only that chick from Deal or No Deal and there's like 50 of those girls on that show so gorgeous as she is, from a promotional standpoint, I really can't see her being a any kind of a draw to an audience (except for her obvious good looks and once they're in the theater, THEN her talent).

 

In the absence of a name star you promote the genre and not the cast, this is a standard approach lots of genre movies use.

 

I, myself am looking to hire an older star for 3 days in a major supporting role that will be cut in through out the film ( basic indy stuff) to kinda help securing distribution IF I can afford the guy I'm looking at, but I'm also impressed you were able to make a 50/50 deal considering that you DIDN'T have a star.

 

Name stars are always a good idea if you can get one.

 

Was this 50/50 deal essentially only in Canada or in the beginning, were you able to make some deals here in the States? If it's only in Canada and 99% of all films released in Canada are made in the USA, maybe I should try and get my film released in Canada first biggrin.gif .

 

You might as well, the USA bought this country 50 years ago so come on in!

 

Even though I only released in Canada the US buyer was still very impressed that it had a theatrical release, period! There is no down side.

 

Another thing I wanted to ask, back in the day when I asked you if you planned to try for a theatrical release after you had secured a release (I'm assuming foreign market or DVD) you pretty much just scoffed,

 

I had not really looked into the idea at that stage, so I launched my self into a crash course on the theater business.

 

was this a marketing thing because you were in negotiations because you didn't want anyone to know what was going on OR did you look into self distribution and decide it could be done and go for it? I'm just curios because I have no doubt, when I finish making Blood Moon Rising, I'm gonna have to do a lot of the same things you did to get it out there. I figured I'd have to either get a distributer interested or 4 wall it. I'm REAL impressed you managed to make a 50/50 deal with so many theater owners. I've been a salesman since I was in my teens and even owned a phone sales business so this is a challenge I actually look forward to. Other than the stuff you already mentioned (which is good advice BTW) what other tips can you share? Thanks-Steve

 

You e-mail your web site to the theater owner or go in in person with your poster art. They'll always talk to you during off hours. I always took Friday and Saturday nights on my run, which is quite unusual for theaters to turn over the biggest nights to an unknown indie director.

 

In Barrie I was at an 8 screen CinePlex and they took out a Hollywood release on the Friday and Saturday to put me in. Nice guys. A lot of people will support you if you ask. Talk fast and don't accept no for an answer. I ALWAYS have a yes-no-then flow chart in my head or on paper when I talk to people in this business. Expect the objections before they are raised and have your resolution for the concern at the ready.

 

Ok now I'm saying too much about how I do business :D

 

R,

 

[James Steven Beverly]

Well maybe so, but i sure appreciate it, Amigo. :D Thanks-Steve

 

(P.S. and yes I will at least admit that Canada saved the world in the 2nd world war, the Canadians taking Juno were a GREAT help to the Americans winning the war. :D )

Edited July 13, 2008 by James Steven Beverly

[Josh Bass]

I recall the budget (specific numbers) being mentioned as well. If you're trying to keep it under wraps, might try to find those old threads and see if you can delete the posts or have the moderator do it for you.

[Guest]

I recall the budget (specific numbers) being mentioned as well. If you're trying to keep it under wraps, might try to find those old threads and see if you can delete the posts or have the moderator do it for you.

 

I certainly can't find it, and so far no one else has produced it. I doubt I would make a serious error like that.

 

R,

[Josh Bass]

I recall a very specific number being put out there when you were first talking about this movie. You mention tricks used to get film stock at low costs like bugging film students and stuff. This would have been. . .2 years ago? I don't remember exactly. I also remember, possibly a separate thread, where Mullen got an advance copy of the finished film and talks about how you busted your ass, and it how it certainly didn't look like you only spent $__________ on the movie.

[Josh Bass]

Bored. Lots of time on hands right now. Searched for Mullen quote, found it, was wrong about it mentioning specific dollars. But still think it's floating around somewhere.

[Guest]

Well keep looking..I never threw out a specific number ;)

 

All we know for a fact is that it's between $1.00 & $1,000,000.00

 

There where only two previous threads in the In Production section on this project. It's easy to find those two threads and read through them. Neither of them contain any budget info.

 

R,

[Christopher Santucci]

I certainly can't find it, and so far no one else has produced it. I doubt I would make a serious error like that.

 

R,

 

 

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/in...st&p=135470

 

.

[James Steven Beverly]

WHY do you guys keep harping on the budget? What DIFFERENCE does it make??!! You can safely assume, if Richard is a family man and not the heir to a tool manufacturing fortune with a trust fund and stock options, he DIDN'T have a million bucks in his back pocket to make the movie and since he DID mention in one of his threads that if a movie costs under 250K, it's almost gureenteed to make mone that his film cost under 250K, and I would bet, fairly well UNDER 250k so within a viable range fom many low budget, indy film makers. A movie made for under 250K is a million dollar movie in "Hollywood dollars" so unless a movie is made for a RIDICULES budget like the 28K Kevin James did with Clerks of and the 8K Rodriguez did with El Mariachi (which had MASSIVE amounts of money poured into it to get it to the version you saw in the theaters by the studio BTW) and it becomes a MEGA success, there's no percentage in telling someone you're trying to sell it to, what you paid for it. If it becomes a mega success, then you DO release the budget so every one thinks what a genius you are and want to throw money at you because if he only needed X to make this much then Z should make THIIIIIIIIS much. SOOOO for OUR purposes, we can safely assume he has done all this with a film that cost under 250K and THAT is more than enough information about his budget for anyone. It's not a DV film made for 5 grand, it's a 35mm feature shot with I'm assuming a professional cast and crew in a limited number of locations, takes and effects, Do the math. what does stock cost at student rates, what does a crew cost, what does equipment rental cost, how much do you pay for your cast, caterers, expendables, ect,,ect, ect, Whatdua come up with? THAT budget is as JUST usable in this situation as the actual budget would be. This isn't rocket science, do some research, it'd be good practice for budgeting YOUR next film. :blink:

[Guest]

Come on are you referring to this:

 

"All I have to do to make back the production budget is to sell 20 DVDs for $25,000.00 each"

 

You understand that was a JOKE right?

 

You've never heard that one before? "All I have to do is sell five copies for $100,000.00 each or 10 copies for $50,000.00 each"

 

Let me explain....no one would pay $25,000.00 for a single DVD, that is why it's a J-O-K-E.

 

You guys are seriously starting to piss me off!

 

R,

[Christopher Santucci]

Come on are you referring to this:

 

"All I have to do to make back the production budget is to sell 20 DVDs for $25,000.00 each"

 

You understand that was a JOKE right?

 

You've never heard that one before? "All I have to do is sell five copies for $100,000.00 each or 10 copies for $50,000.00 each"

 

Let me explain....no one would pay $25,000.00 for a single DVD, that is why it's a J-O-K-E.

 

You guys are seriously starting to piss me off!

 

R,

 

 

 

Of course it's a joke, but there's a real number at the end of it.

 

.

[Josh Bass]

I gave up.

 

On this same topic, are there any outlets for SHORT films, besides:

 

film fests

a handful of new "get paid by the download" services

a handful of TV channels that show shorts