Does my HD work flow make sense?

November 17, 2004

hi all,

I have shot a HD telemovie on the F900 before and now my company is planning on our first HD feature length for theatrical release. I've been doing some research on what is the most cost efficient way of doing this next feature because my company has a "share" in this project unless the previous commission jobs. Pls help me run through the following HD work flow and tell me if it makes sense.

1. I would like to shoot on Cinealta F900 over Varicam because F900 has more resolution. Right?

2. Rent a Miranda DVC 800 downconverter on set so I can have DV quality video for "offline" in my FCP-HD studio. This way I can avoid renting a HD VTR which is really costly.

3. Go to a post house for "online" and transfer to film.

Question...

1. Now i'm trying to figure out if its economical to upgrade my FCP-HD G5 set-up to go fully HD so I can "Online" the project in-house as well. ie. get a Blackmagic HD card, upgrade my RAM & harddisk. How much hard-disk space do I need to "online" a feature length comedy drama with minimum special effects? Do I need other stuff beside renting a HD deck? I'm afraid to miss out other things.

2. Does it make more sense to shoot 25P rather than 24P since in live in a PAL country? Any problems when I transfer 25P to film? Sound issues, etc

3. Is there other alternatives to Miranda DVC 800?

4. Would it be better to shoot using Varicam since FCP reads DVCPRO HD and not HDCAM?

THANKS for helping a newbie

David Mullen ASC · November 17, 2004

Yes, the F900 has more resolution than the Varicam recording. There may be other reasons than resolution as to why you might choose the Varicam. So far, I've only used the F900 for features.

I did one feature at 25P instead of 24P because it was being cut in PAL and was going to mix some PAL Digital Betacam footage into the master. It transferred to film fine; the issues are really audio-related, not image-related. If you are doing a musical where pitch is critical, it may be an issue (the audio slow-down from 25 to 24 fps).

I've never attempted doing my own downconversions on set for video dailies because it seemed a waste of my set time to be dealing with that (and one more cable coming from the camera to deal with, and a deck), but if you have someone else in charge of that and you do it correctly, I don't see a problem.

Keith Mottram · November 17, 2004

minimum spec i'd suggest for doing your own online is 2GHZ dp, 4 gigs of ram, 2tb storage,, and a HD monitor- or LCD with adaptor. Its not a cheap upgrade and this is bare minimum, but nor is sitting in an online realising that you'd rather done things a bit differently. It all depends how much online you'll need, if it is a really simple online and you cant see the kit being used for hd much after the film then i'd think twice, but you would probably pay for the kit for the equivelent of about a week's online. Also you could think about using a Sony JH3 deck which are about 150ukp a day to offline your HDCAM footage in over firewire (and output over sdi for your online- no input though), I would forget about the Miranda I've heard of bad experiences with them.

Keith

Elhanan Matos · November 17, 2004

The Miranda DVC-800 is one choice, the Evertz F9 is another choice.

John Sprung · November 17, 2004

Use the Cinealta as your "A" camera, and upconvert from the varicam if you need to over or under crank. Think of the varicam as a sort of Arri IIC equivalent.

Keep your shooting setup as simple as possible. Let post deal with making what they need for offline. Don't waste expensive production time on it. There are a couple big problems with downconversion on the set. If you shoot with time of day code, on a 20 day shoot you can have 20 different pieces of video with the same time code. If you have to show dailies to executives or investors, showing everything instead of just circled takes wastes a lot of their time and makes the director and DP look like idiots. Have the post facility make dailies selects transfers, coding each selects reel with the hour number equal to the reel number, just like telecine masters on a film show. That gets you unique codes for editing, and it protects your camera original tapes. Tape is more delicate than film, and all the work and money you put into production is gone at the end of the day, with nothing to show for it but that tape that was in the camera.

-- J.S.

Phil Rhodes · November 17, 2004

Hi,

Yes, I'd definitely shoot at 25fps - it makes life enormously easier (not that I will ever have to finish anything to film, but I've dealt with 24/25 issues and it's a pain.)

What you suggest does make some sense. Making your downconversions using a simple piece of kit during camera downtime (hire some student type to do it overnight, but ensure they get it right!) will save you a packet in equipment rental. Make sure you get timecode and that the complete process is discussed and preferably trialled all the way through, to ensure that you won't get any nasty surprises along the lines of "Oh, if you'd only just named the clips on import the EDL would make sense."

On the other hand, I really would love an excuse to build an HD edit station - if I had the money.

Phil

Mike Brennan · November 17, 2004

Avoid live downconversons on set.

Rent a JH3 instead of the Miranda.

Get production to rent it for the duration of production.

Initially put it in the offline so the editor can see the rushes on a HD monitor. He can digitise and do a DV copy at the same time.

Since you are a clever guy you have recorded sound on camera so he can start editing immediatley.

Then production can use it to view any HD footage ie cgi, rough cuts, pickup shots, stock footage ect, with audio!

25p is the way to go unless you are shooting a musical or unless the finaciers insist (which case you say you will deliver 24p, but you are shooting at 25 for artistic reasons!)

Since every HD edit suite I know has HD gremlins you build your own long form online at your peril:)

A DIY edit setup for kicking around a few minutes of HD pics for comping tests effects work ect is less of an issue.

Mike Brennan

Mark Allen · November 18, 2004

My thoughts:

1. If this is not a big special effects show, I would suggest you consider this process: If you can find a local post house that has an FCP - HD system - this will work great... otherwise, it is a little slower, but still works - I've done it both ways. So - Forget about DV recording and such on the set. When you finish your shoot, go to a post house and capture all of your HD tapes to a proxy format in the same fps as your HD tape (which I'm gong to recommend as 24p in the next section). Then you are only dealing with a bunch on manageable proxy movies which FCP works very well with. You do your edit and then come back to the post house with your FCP project and load back in all the footage - frame perfect. It works amazingly well - you can even do temporary color corrections which will be carried over once the new footage is loaded in as a replacement for the proxies. Yes, you can then go in and tweak the settings and such durng your online if you like.

2. If you are going to film - absolutely use 24p. Why introduce any inconsistency? It's just trouble. The whole glory of today's non linear is not being tied to the TV specs vs. the film specs... just shoot 24, capture 24, edit 24, online 24, print to film at 24.

3. This issue will be irrelevant as proxies play beautifully on a stock G5.

4. If you're printing to film, I'd recommend HDcam... but I'm not nearly as qualified to recommend that as I am the issue in item number 1 and 2.

Mike Brennan · November 18, 2004

My thoughts:

2. If you are going to film - absolutely use 24p. Why introduce any inconsistency? I

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

25p is much "easier" to offline in PAL countries than 24p or 23.98

By easier I mean

1/can be offlined in any old TV offline suite that are much easier to beg and borrow than 24p capable suite. (Basically he'll need to find a NTSC capable offline.)

2/ less chance of screw ups with 25p (50i) timecode and audio than introducing 23.98 in a PAL facility that may not be giving him the best service since he is on a low budget.

3/ Posting 23.98 or 24 is more expensive than 25p. Many facilities are just setup for 25p TV work so do not own tri level sych generators or f500s, let alone know how to operate them...

4/Not enough experience in PAL countries with 23.98 and 24p, so although he may find a 24p capable offline edit suite, posting is unlikely to be trouble free.

Mike Brennan

November 19, 2004

Thank you all for your comments. 25P seems to be the way to go and I'll confirm it with the Sony people at a Sony HD workshop in 2 weeks time. It also looks like I'll be going to a digital film lab in Bangkok for online and transfer since there is none in singapore. My company's experience in an india film lab was not good in term of quality, but I got to give them credit for their great atittude.

I'll also be checking out some labs in Australia but price is a concern. Any good recommendations?

i'm also getting mix comments about the Miranda downconverter from this forum. i guess i'll test one out when the time comes.

thank u all

December 9, 2004

1. I would like to shoot on Cinealta F900 over Varicam because F900 has more resolution. Right?

Question...

1. Now i'm trying to figure out if its economical to upgrade my FCP-HD G5 set-up to go fully HD so I can "Online" the project in-house as well. ie. get a Blackmagic HD card, upgrade my RAM & harddisk. How much hard-disk space do I need to "online" a feature length comedy drama with minimum special effects? Do I need other stuff beside renting a HD deck? I'm afraid to miss out other things.

4. Would it be better to shoot using Varicam since FCP reads DVCPRO HD and not HDCAM?

THANKS for helping a newbie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

to 1st.

I don't know what is economical to you but finishing a full feature in HD is still not trivial. To online HDCAM (you'll be working uncompressed anyway as soon as it is on the discs cause FCP does'nt support HDCAM) not only needs alot of space but also lots of bandwith from the discs. Getting ~200MB/S, which you'll need not only as peak values is still quite heavy. So we speak of a really big and fast disc-array, which won't come cheap.

Plus I heard there are some issues with the decklink, but I can't confirm myself.

to 4th.

I'd suggest to go for HDCAM because of better resolution and let it get onlined somewhere else unless of course you want to do this sort of online work more often.

greetings

Kai

John Sprung · December 9, 2004

I'd suggest to go for HDCAM because of better resolution and let it get onlined somewhere else

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably a good idea. Online in HDCam is done every day -- well, mostly at night -- on a mass production basis for TV shows. Disk space and machine rental for a do it yourself attempt might not save you anything compared with going to any of the big TV post companies. HD tape machines don't come cheap. Compare the numbers, then decide.

-- J.S.