Politics

[David Mullen ASC]

I'm not going to let someone like Matt Pacini take pot shots at those of us with more liberal political beliefs than him without responding in kind, but I really DON'T want to come here and discuss politics at all. And I apologize for any unprovoked political comments I have made in the past (although usually I am responding to someone else's comment, not starting a political thread.)

 

So unless we all agree to knock it off, I'll leave this forum to you conservatives and you can discuss the "Muslim threat" all you want. But probably the website will need a new name!

[Jonathan Spear]

Agreed.

 

There are plenty of other forums out there for heated political debates...

 

Let's not forget why we're here folks and how much some of us need this website and these forums for filmmaking-related information. It would be a shame to see this site close down because of politics.

 

As artists, aren't we supposed to be a bit better than that???

[Brad Grimmett]

As artists, aren't we supposed to be a bit better than that???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I certainly think that discussing politics is a good thing. I think that we would be worse off if we didn't discuss them (as oppossed to being "better than that"). But I do agree that this isn't the place. I've certainly been involved in these discussions before, but it's better if we just leave our own beliefs behind when we post here. That's not what this forum is for....

I'll stop when everyone else does! :P

[Tim Tyler]

It would be a shame to see this site close down because of politics.

 

Don't worry. This site will not close down.

 

David's right though. Let's leave the non-cinematography discussions for another forum.

[Guest fstop]

I dunno, where do you draw the line on politics?

 

I think runnning away from the problem would prove a bigger cop-out, especially considering how much geniune EDUCATION on such a high level is given on this site.

 

I visit a few forums on the net, the others are all music based and one of them particularly actually has a rule that there is to be no discussion of religion or politics. The website forum in question is highly regarded and THE best at what it represents with hundreds if not thousands posting, but for all of those good intentions (and it is a REALLY pleasent board to visit) at least twice a week there's a MAMMOTH loophole, hypocracy and moderator double standards or occasional moments of "OK, for one day only given the circumstances there's a democracy..." There's lots of underlying fear and pent up, repressed feelings. Ludicrously, there was a memorable instant that everyone had to pretend to ignore (very embarrasing) in which a thread was created praising the music score to Michael Moore's Farenheit 9/11, a topic discussing the film underlying the musical quality, underscoring dramatic moments in the film albeit tiptoeing around the inevitable political context. Totally INSANE. It's all very "Gentleman, you can't fight in here- this is the war room!"

 

 

Cinematography is an art. Period. It's not more about science or technology, it's about subjective response. It's unarguable. Anyone after evidence on this look no further than the passionate posts of Dominic Case (handsdown unarguably the most technically informed here) in response to Daniel Smith in the Citizen Kane thread. This is a medium about historical context, emotional manipulation, underlying political influence and overtly governed by elitism and hierarchy with more than hints of documented moral rejection, inbreeding, nepotism, scandal, sleaze and dishonesty that goes back to the birth of the medium.

 

This forum so far has been an indespensible hang-out and without doubt the ultimate site for sharing insight, knowledge, listening and learning about cinematography and it's existence. It's not a techno-babble hole full of jargon, digits, elder/elite patronisation (behold the wonderful "Calling a video a film" thread), favouritism and paraphrased technical manuals but a how, when and WHY about everything surrounding the craft. I think you all do yourself a big injustice underestimating the POWER of your posts and how they become interpreted and judged by everyone from regular contributing posters like myself to even the infrequent, curious lurkers. Presenting as much information as possible with all of the questions and all the possible answers on the answerable and even the unanswerable (opinions) can only make this place RICHER for those visiting to take what they want out of it. When content is so overwhelming, don't underestimate judgement. EVER.

 

The thread in question concerning Hollywood liberals was a case in point in which a cynical viewpoint was given, considered by others and taken in conflicting routes. However, there's never any patronisation or opinions stated as fact, for example just look how many question marks can be found in David Mullen's posts in that thread alone! You don't think those opposing viewpoints and challenged issues won't be offering intrigue or stimulate awareness as much as the initial posters opinions? ALL sides please, let us make our OWN judgement. That's something that can only do good in my view: diversity of opinion. How is anyone to learn anything if we repress and tip toe around glaring issues that divide opinion? How do we discover, develop, evolve and challenge our perspectives- how do we remain open minded??

 

Cinematography is an artform- please, let's celebrate it's existence and make NO apologies!

 

[Keith Mottram]

Politics is always a difficult subject, but it is one that you remove at your peril. Every major film movement is a reflection of the politics of the time. Whilst there is no point in a pointless right versus left bashing (or visa versa), to remove politics from this forum would be to remove a responsibilie that we all have to our 'art'- to tell our visions from our hearts and minds. Otherwise we really might as well just programme computers to churn out formulaic rubbish.

 

If we, and I believe we must, accept that politics influence our and our mentors work then we should discuss politics in this forum.

 

Keith

 

Politics is perhaps the only profession for which no preparation is thought necessary.

 

Robert Louis Stevenson (1850 - 1894)

[Tim Tyler]

Cinematography is an artform, and art can be political. No argument there.

 

But this is the 'cinematography' forum, not an art forum. It's not even a 'filmmkaing' forum. It's pretty specific - cinematography.

 

The point here is to keep things in this forum directly related to cinematography. The people who frequent this forum are here to discuss cinematography.

 

Got a comment about the politics of cinematography. That's fine. Post away!

 

But this is not the place to talk about 'left vs. right' or 'democrats vs. republicans' or 'religion A' vs. 'religion B'. And it's certainly not the place for somebody with one political point of view to bash somebody with another political point of view.

 

This is a place where people interested in cinematography talk about cinematography.

[DavidSloan]

I thought the off topic board was an appropriate place to post things which are "off topic?"

 

I didn't mean to start a liberal bashing post, I just wanted to post a story about a fellow filmmaker.

 

Sorry you got so upset, Dave.

[Keith Mottram]

Cinematography is an artform, and art can be political. No argument there.

 

But this is the 'cinematography' forum, not an art forum. It's not even a 'filmmkaing' forum. It's pretty specific - cinematography.

 

The point here is to keep things in this forum directly related to cinematography. The people who frequent this forum are here to discuss cinematography.

 

Got a comment about the politics of cinematography. That's fine. Post away!

 

But this is not the place to talk about 'left vs. right' or 'democrats vs. republicans' or 'religion A' vs. 'religion B'. And it's certainly not the place for somebody with one political point of view to bash somebody with another political point of view.

 

This is a place where people interested in cinematography talk about cinematography.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i agree that there should be no bashing, but discussion is surely apropriate. why do we choose one palate against another? it is either an 'artistic' choice, 'commercial' choice or a 'political' refelection. I'm not trying to pick an argument with you Tim, but i cannot understand how cinematography can not reflect 'art' or 'polotics'. Whilst this forum is an excellent place to discuss the technichal merrits of one piece of kit or another, we also discuss films and filmmakers. If we were to withdraw 'subjective' discussion then half this forum would sease to be of any value. For me that is one of the things I like about this forum and something you should be very proud of, in here we have the ability to discuss and disagree and even argue. It is also a very democratic place, remove the 'politics' and 'art' and your left with a list of facts. I think you said it best when you said 'Cinematography is an artform, and art can be political. No argument there.' except that art is 'always' not 'can'.

 

Keith

[David Mullen ASC]

I don't see a problem with talking about the political implications of movies as long as the discussion remains less partisan, more intellectual.

 

But I don't want to read the same sort of "sound bites" you hear from commentators on Fox, taking jibes at whole groups of people, making gross and insulting generalizations about people of different political beliefs. I was pretty offended at the implication that I, as part of the dreaded "liberal elite", don't care enough when someone gets murdered just because he wasn't ethnic. I'm STILL mad at that post.

[J. Lamar King IMPOSTOR]

I agree we should keep the hard-core politics off the board. This is about cinematography, not where you stand in the current political climate. I've seen politics destroy the usefuelness of other community boards recently. No one's communicating just arguing.

 

I've found it a unique thing in the professional artistic community sometimes when people start talking politics, many others will just tell them to stop it before it starts an argument. I've seen that on a set and in production meetings. It's better to just not start it. As Barney Fife would say "Knip it! Knip it in the bud..."

[Tim Tyler]

It's thankfully not very often in this forum that I need to step in as the admin and moderate. But, if you haven't noticed, there are nearly 2500 members now, and an average of 15 new members comes on board every day.

 

I think threads like this one help keep everybody on the same page, and show people where the acceptable discussion boundaries are. Being polite and considerate counts here.

[GeorgeSelinsky]

David's a man I respect very much, and had the pleasure of meeting. He's an intelligent craftsman who is very good at what he does and very generous with his advice (which he takes his time to offer).

 

That said, I don't think it was right to start this thread from such an emotional tone, that Dave would leave this board to us "conservatives" - especially if this was an argument AGAINST political debate on this forum.

 

I myself apologize for getting hooked into the political side of the debate on Van Gough. We are human beings however, we have emotions, and certain discussions (like in the Off Topic section, I'll repeat that again, OFF TOPIC section) are going to touch upon people's personal ideology.

 

Where you're going to draw the line is really tough to do. I can't imagine that during the elections that people on film sets weren't occasionally engauged in arguments. It's normal, people are passionate about something that might mean a lot to them, and they want to speak about it sometimes. When 9-11 happened, it was nice to see so many colleagues inquiring about how the New York team (i.e. Mitch Gross) were doing. Is that poltiics? Could easily be seen as such...

 

One of the great things about this forum is that we all become friends. When you write to someone a lot and exchange ideas, have certain things in common, it happens :) A side result of that is that we desire to take things on a further level. Either you say "no, keep it strictly professional", or "at your own discretion - but no personal abuse".

 

- G.

Edited November 30, 2004 by GeorgeSelinsky

[Matt Pacini]

Well, since I'm named specifically in the initial post, I guess I should respond.

 

I have no problem excluding politics from this board, if that's what Tim wants to happen, fine.

I just don't believe that's what is going on here.

It's not that there are political statements being made, it's that there are "certain types" of political statements being made.

 

Almost without exception (I'm not claiming to be 100% blameless), I have only posted an alternative viewpoint when someone else first starts in with politics (the Van Gogh statements being an exception).

 

An example would be the "why would you want to work in America with "HIM" in charge" comment being one just off the top of my head that was recent.

 

What bugs me, is that if it's a "jab at the right", comment, it's viewed as non-political on this board.

 

It's only if someone responds with an alternative view, thats when the complaints about posts being "political" come in.

I've sat and watched post after post at times, where the classic "Bush is worse than Hitler" and "conservatives are idiots" or "America is evil because..." type comments go on for days with nobody complaining, then if myself of someone else pops in with a defense, all of a sudden, it's: "OH, THIS BOARD IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT POLITICS, SO KNOCK IT OFF!"

 

And there are generalities in all directions, certainly not just my posts.

David, obviously I wasn't saying YOU don't care about Van Gogh being murdered,

I'm just commenting on how (as I see it) the film community picks & chooses it's causes, that are totally inconsistent with any sense of logic.

I think it's obvious by my post, that I'm referring to the usual vocal celebrity types, plus I was merely pointing out, that clearly the most offensive act of censorship is actually murdering the filmmaker, yet on this board, complaints go on and on about the evils of the MPAA over censorship, and not a peep about this.

Would you agree that there has been no mass public outrage over the Van Gogh murder?

I've seen exactly zero celebrities in any media say anything whatsoever about it.

I don't think it's a coincidence, it's political.

 

I think the problem here is, that you guys are so used to your opinion being considered "the mainstream", that you don't even recognize your own political bent when you're making political statements.

I don't think anyone would disagree, that a majority of people in the industry are liberal, so as a result, you guys can make political comments all day long on the set, or whatever, and nobody says anything in disagreement, because conservatives know better than to utter their opinion publicly.

We just keep our mouths shut, or pretend to agree, so you guys are just horrified when someone actually has the guts to say something you disagree with.

 

I believe in free speech, I believe in political diversity, and I think that one side of the story should not be the only viewpoint allowed to be spoken.

 

I'll gladly keep my political opinions to myself, as long as everyone else does the same.

But if we're going to have a double standard of "liberal political viewoints will not be considered political, but conservatives ones will", then I'll be the one to leave this board.

 

No hard feelings to anyone here, I actually really like all you guys.

I just don't happen to get my feelings hurt when I hear opinions that differ from mine, and frankly, I find it shocking and a bit distrurbing that any of you here do.

 

Matt Pacini

Edited November 30, 2004 by Matt Pacini

[GeorgeSelinsky]

I think the problem here is, that you guys are so used to your opinion being considered "the mainstream", that you don't even recognize your own political bent when you're making political statements.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't want to get further involved in this at all, and this is not targeting anyone specifically on this forum, but in this instance Matt has a good point.

 

I happen not to associate myself with either republicans or democrats, but I do occasionally see a double standard not just on the forum but in the entertainment business. We must strive to be more fair and accomodating of all points of view, as well as be more fair equilateraly about what sort of rhetoric is or is not okay.

 

Peace to all, keep the silver coated acetate running (oops, I should have also said rust, I mean, magentic oxide coated tape :))

 

- G.

[Matt Pacini]

At the risk of sounding like a whiner ("you guys don't know what it's like, snif, snif), I must say...

... you guys don't know what it's like.

 

It's just absolutely ALWAYS OK, 100% of the time, to make liberal political statements, and publicly deride conservatives, particularly around industry people.

I'm not trying to get in fights on this board, it's just that it gets really irritating effectively being censored if you don't have the "correct" opinions.

 

I vow from here on out, to NEVER make a political post, unless someone else does first, and even then, I'll try to show more restraint than I have in the past.

And if I've offended anyone, I truly am sorry, and I'm serious.

I don't want to piss people off.

 

Matt Pacini

[Keith Mottram]

Would you agree that there has been no mass public outrage over the Van Gogh murder?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I cant comment about the other side of the pond, but the Van Gogh murder was a big story in all the broadsheets (and made the national news) in the UK, and there was and have been mass public protests in Holland. There has also been revenge attacks including a murder, plus schools and mosques have been vandalised. I think it is also worth pointing out that Van Gogh turned down police protection after recieving death threats and from the clips from the film i saw, it was pretty easy to see that part of his intention was to provoke.

 

Indeed in his career from what i know he has pretty much provoked every group he can and his far right imigration stance was certainly something i couldn't palate. I'm not defending his killing by any stretch and i have full respect for freedom of speech, but to all intents and purposes his views were frequently misoganistic and xenopohobic.

 

If one good thing came out of the tradgedy it was the tens of thousands of dutch (including muslim) that took to the streets to demonstrate against religeous intollerance.

 

Keith

[Jon Allen]

I never got into this big debate, and to some degree, I'm kind of disappointed I didn't. But through it all, the media still has a dominantly liberal bias- which is why films like "fehrenheit 9/11" got a lot more press than "fehrenhype" and "michael moore hates america".

I'm not saying all people involved are liberal, but to some degree, the majority of media stories that get out are from the left's viewpoint. Maybe this is good entertainment, maybe it's not. I remember from college that the more outrageous your characters are, the more funny they become, this might be a way of boosting ratings... by airing outrageous new stories. Remember that little CBS fiasco with those bad reports about GW's service record? Nevermind several blocks of downtown NYC being closed down for a week due to protests by the democrats at the GOP convention- but there weren't enough protesters at the democratic convention to shut down anything. And no one on the news said anything to discourage this type of disruption.

Then again, the conservative crowd is pretty reactionary. So it might make good TV if we air more crazy stuff and see the right wing scramble.

[Keith Mottram]

I'm not saying all people involved are liberal, but to some degree, the majority of media stories that get out are from the left's viewpoint.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Er... Fox News, the Clear Radio group....am i the only one taking crazy pills round here??

[Guest dpforum1968]

David Mullen, why don't you move here to Canada?

 

Sounds like you'd fit in perfectly. The Canadian immigration dept has been swamped with inquiries from disaffected Americans after George W. Bush's re-election. Lots of former Americans have been interviewed on TV recently, these folks gave up their US citizenship and moved to Canada for good. It can be done.

 

BTW, Mr. Bush is here in Canada over the next two days, so those Americans who quit the USA to move here have to put up with him for 48 hours at least :-)

 

Also, with regard to art and Islam, as difficult as this may be for some to hear, there is a problem. Let's say for example you make a film critical of Mormons, Baptists, Budhists, or Methodists for example. The result will NOT be a death sentance pronounced upon your head by any of these religous groups.

 

Fact is that if you write a book or make a film critical of Islam your life may be in danger. It's hard to correct the problems within Islam when as soon as you point them out publically you might get killed. The Catholic church for instance has not ordered any of the news media people that exposed the sex abuse scandal in the USA killed. Nor have any individual Catholics killed a member of the media for reporting on the sex abuse scandal.

 

I know there are lots of Muslims in the world and the attack on Van Gogh was carried out by just one of them, but the fact is it still happened. And there is a connection between Van Gogh's death and Islam.

 

If real freedom is to make in roads into the Arab world then the people and leadership will have to accept views critical of their way of life. It's allowed in the western world, it will have to be allowed in the Middle East. Van Gogh and Rushdie where two people who dared to find fault with Islam, Van Gogh paid with his life, Rushdie had to live underground for a long time.

 

The film community should encourage people like Van Gogh, and condem extremists who try to quash points of view they don't agree with.

 

DC

[Keith Mottram]

David Mullen, why don't you move here to Canada?

 

Sounds like you'd fit in perfectly.  The Canadian immigration dept has been swamped with inquiries from disaffected Americans after George W. Bush's re-election.  Lots of former Americans have been interviewed on TV recently, these folks gave up their US citizenship and moved to Canada for good.  It can be done.

 

BTW, Mr. Bush is here in Canada over the next two days, so those Americans who quit the USA to move here have to put up with him for 48 hours at least :-)

 

Also, with regard to art and Islam, as difficult as this may be for some to hear, there is a problem.  Let's say for example you make a film critical of Mormons, Baptists, Budhists, or Methodists for example.  The result will NOT be a death sentance pronounced upon your head by any of these religous groups.

 

Fact is that if you write a book or make a film critical of Islam your life may be in danger.  It's hard to correct the problems within Islam when as soon as you point them out publically you  might get killed.  The Catholic church for instance has not ordered any of the news media people that exposed the sex abuse scandal in the USA killed.  Nor have any individual Catholics killed a member of the media for reporting on the sex abuse scandal.

 

I know there are lots of Muslims in the world and the attack on Van Gogh was carried out by just one of them, but the fact is it still happened.  And there is a connection between Van Gogh's death and Islam.

 

If real freedom is to make in roads into the Arab world then the people and leadership will have to accept views critical of their way of life.  It's allowed in the western world, it will have to be allowed in the Middle East.  Van Gogh and Rushdie where two people who dared to find fault with Islam, Van Gogh paid with his life, Rushdie had to live underground for a long time.

 

The film community should encourage people like Van Gogh, and condem extremists who try to quash points of view they don't agree with.

 

DC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm afraid that you are confusing islam with fanatasism, a problem which is not the sole persuit of muslims. Have you any idea how many millions of people die each year in Africa due to the Catholic church's murderously narrow views on birth control. Millions, not one person or even thousands but millions. This under the banner of 'pro life'.

 

Keith

[Guest lonedog]

"Are you the Judean peoples front?"

"F**k off"

"What?"

"Judean peoples front...........wankers...........we're the peoples front of Judea.

 

Monty Python's Life Of Brian.

Any other favourites?

[Guest dpforum1968]

You're connecting birth control with potentially being shot for making a film critical of Islam? L-O-N-G shot. Oh and of course you're trying to drag your "pro-choice" views into the thread, nice one.

 

Sorry, but like I said, fanatics or mainstream...where are the people who get killed for making films critical of other religions?

 

DC

[Jon Allen]

Er... Fox News, the Clear Radio group....am i the only one taking crazy pills round here??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you think that's a majority, probably.

[Brad Grimmett]

At the risk of sounding like a whiner ("you guys don't know what it's like, snif, snif), I must say...

... you guys don't know what it's like.

 

It's just absolutely ALWAYS OK, 100% of the time, to make liberal political statements, and publicly deride conservatives, particularly around industry people.

I'm not trying to get in fights on this board, it's just that it gets really irritating effectively being censored if you don't have the "correct" opinions.

 

Matt Pacini

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll be blunt, Matt, and say that you DO sound like a whiner. That's certainly not meant as a jab, but I think you've had just as much chance to state your views as anyone else. If the majority of people disagree with you it doesn't mean you're being "censored" for not having the "correct" opinions. I don't think there's ever been an edict that "It's just absolutely ALWAYS OK, 100% of the time, to make liberal political statements, and publicly deride conservatives". This kind of thing happens on both sides of the fence. I think that your "you guys don't know what it's like" attitude has come through in many of your posts, and could be a reason people tend to react harshly to your political posts. It's certainly affected the way I've replied to your posts in the past. But maybe I'm the only one....

Like I said in my previous post.....I'm in favor of leaving our personal political opinions at the door when we enter this forum. It's just not the place for it.