more 'fine art' focused?

[Mike Lary]

So I replied,

"..."fine art" as a term, not a judgement: maybe you're talking about renaissance masters that have survived for 500 years? I would agree, that's "fine" stuff. But contemporary fine art... are you kidding?"

 

That is how my statement could be a response to specific statements you've made in this thread.

You must have skimmed my posts. I never championed any art as fine art. In fact, I went on to say there's no such thing as fine art. My whole point was that the term is a bogus construction used by elitists to discredit artistic works.

 

As far as tone is concerned, you called me a woman's name, 'exitable' (a term reserved mostly for small children), and 'fella' (another term used primarily for young people). If you interpret aggressiveness in my response to that, perhaps it's just your gut reminding you that aggressive responses are often the natural response to patronization.

[David Rakoczy]

You must have skimmed my posts. I never championed any art as fine art. In fact, I went on to say there's no such thing as fine art. My whole point was that the term is a bogus construction used by elitists to discredit artistic works.

 

I agree. When I think of fine.. I think of Fine Wine or Fine Dining.. meaning high end, high quality and expensive. Fine Art tho? That is subject to interpretation. A 20 x 40 foot canvas covered in a pastel pink wash is not 'Fine Art' in (my ) art book. really, 'Fine' can only be applied to Film when describing Grain.... or as a (personal) opinion like 'that actor or director did a fine job'.

[Freya Black]

hi, i'm basically looking to find other websites. Preferably forums similar to this that are more fine art focused, so far all i have found is http://www.lux.org.uk/ .

 

and i was also wondering if anyone knew about fine art film magazines that are worth subscribing to. i guess similar to Frieze, but film orientated.

 

When i say fine art film, im talking about hopefully contemporaries who are along the lines of Malcolm Le Grice, David Hall, David Lynch and Bill Viola.

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

n.b. trust me i dont think there's anything wrong with these forums but it would be nice to not have to waste cinematographers time with fine art moving image.

 

You have a bit of a mix going on there that generally are normally stuck in other catergories.

 

In spite of the supposed Kenneth Anger influence in David Lynch's films, he would be seen as being arthouse cinema. He is too narrative to be experimental film. Narrative is generally a dirty word in the world of experimental film and people like Kenneth Anger are at the margins of what might be seen to be "allowed" . Not that there are any rules in art and you can of course do whatever you like and call it art, it's just that people will ignore it and maybe say bad things about it like "well it's a bit narrative isn't it" or something. Anyway...

 

The U.K. cinema of exclusion type people (Malcolm le grice, Peter Gidal and preety much everything in the U.K. since in the world of experimental film), are generally seen as being a part of the history of experimental film genreally. This is actually usually seen as being quite seperate to the world of fine art type videos and video installations, such as Bill Viola and Tracy Emin etc. You might make a case for Nam June Paik as being a bit of a crossover.

 

There is a fantastic art book by a guy called David Curtis about british artists films that has a title something along those lines (can't remember exactly what it is called off-hand) He also try to mix the two together a bit by attempting to show a progression from the cinemaa of exclusion type film stuff, into the world of video installation and more fine art based work. It's great and much more up to date and a bit more inclusive than older texts that would probably look askance at the like of Derek Jarman. I really recommend this book anyway but it seems like it might be just your thing from the way you talk about stuff!

 

The american experimental film world has a very different history to that of the UK. I'm sure Stan Brakhage intended for people to see his work as very immersive and engaging. He was against the conventions of Hollywood film and was one of the people taking film in a more abstract direction. Yes he was one of the people who made films that were in no way figurative and he was a big influence on the cinema of exclusion type things but he had a very different outlook to them. He seems like he was a really nice and great guy actually. Very positive. I think Stans films are supposed to be highly immersive and magical. I get the impression that you are a fan of people like Malcolm Le Grice (You even listed him first!) and you are right to see them as following a progression from what Stan was doing but what Stan had in mind was very different.

 

You are going to love this. Malcolm le Grice, wrote a book called something like "experimental film in the digital age". It's a great book if you have to do reasearch of any kind into this kind of thing. The book is nothing at all like it's title which may have even been invented by some marketing people or maybe it meant something paticular to Malcolm but within its pages Malcolm documents all kinds of stuff to do with the history of his own work and the cinema of exclusion. In paticular you should check out the whole section where there is a whole confrence type thing Between Malcolm and Stan Brakhage documented. It's exactly about this kind of thing. Malcolm comes across a bit as one of the head villans of the whole affair although I'm sure it's more complicated than that at that the cinema of exclusion is a bit the product of its environment. I'd love to see a book by Peter Gidal on the subject. Peter and Malcolm were best pals but Peter seems to be quite a bit of a mischeivious character calling his book materialist film which I suspect was partly to annoy Malcolm who hated the term for obvious reasons. I've heard rumour that Malcolm would in return tell Peter that his films were very beautiful, which would of course annoy the &£$$ out of him. Peter also quit in solidarity when all the women left, despite being one of the organisers of the event at the time himself! :)

 

Traditionally it's been quite hard to find books on the subject, and most of them are old and dusty things which contain the attitudes of the time, so you should definitely check out the David Curtis and Malcolm le Grice books. Materialist film is also worth checking out as it explains clearly all the political ideas behined the cinema of exclusion which are generally focussed in various positive left wing ideas. The road to hell is paved with good intentions! ;)

 

Hope that helps!

 

Oh bother! Now you made me go and burn my rice! ;)

 

love

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

what if...

 

Ironically, another expressionist artist Edvard Munch DID make films!!!!

Unfortunately on the 9.5mm film formaat which I suspect is why they are basically impossible to see! That and the fact nobody seems to know they exist, but they are out there...somewhere!

 

love

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

and i am pretty sure he did some work for Disney but then was soon regarded as too abstract.

 

You are confusing Stan with Oskar Fischinger who was a european artist from the weimar republic (Yay!) who also worked with abstract film. He fled to America some time later after the man with the bad facial hair came along and ruined everything, although to be fair, this is the kind of thing that happens when you base your entire economy on cheap credit, but there we go. Anyway he ended up joining Disney for a while.

 

...unless you were thinking of Tim Burton? ;)

 

love

 

Freya

Edited January 28, 2010 by Freya Black

[Andrzej Ford]

You have a bit of a mix going on there that generally are normally stuck in other catergories.

 

In spite of the supposed Kenneth Anger influence in David Lynch's films, he would be seen as being arthouse cinema. He is too narrative to be experimental film. Narrative is generally a dirty word in the world of experimental film and people like Kenneth Anger are at the margins of what might be seen to be "allowed" . Not that there are any rules in art and you can of course do whatever you like and call it art, it's just that people will ignore it and maybe say bad things about it like "well it's a bit narrative isn't it" or something. Anyway...

 

The U.K. cinema of exclusion type people (Malcolm le grice, Peter Gidal and preety much everything in the U.K. since in the world of experimental film), are generally seen as being a part of the history of experimental film genreally. This is actually usually seen as being quite seperate to the world of fine art type videos and video installations, such as Bill Viola and Tracy Emin etc. You might make a case for Nam June Paik as being a bit of a crossover.

 

There is a fantastic art book by a guy called David Curtis about british artists films that has a title something along those lines (can't remember exactly what it is called off-hand) He also try to mix the two together a bit by attempting to show a progression from the cinemaa of exclusion type film stuff, into the world of video installation and more fine art based work. It's great and much more up to date and a bit more inclusive than older texts that would probably look askance at the like of Derek Jarman. I really recommend this book anyway but it seems like it might be just your thing from the way you talk about stuff!

 

The american experimental film world has a very different history to that of the UK. I'm sure Stan Brakhage intended for people to see his work as very immersive and engaging. He was against the conventions of Hollywood film and was one of the people taking film in a more abstract direction. Yes he was one of the people who made films that were in no way figurative and he was a big influence on the cinema of exclusion type things but he had a very different outlook to them. He seems like he was a really nice and great guy actually. Very positive. I think Stans films are supposed to be highly immersive and magical. I get the impression that you are a fan of people like Malcolm Le Grice (You even listed him first!) and you are right to see them as following a progression from what Stan was doing but what Stan had in mind was very different.

 

You are going to love this. Malcolm le Grice, wrote a book called something like "experimental film in the digital age". It's a great book if you have to do reasearch of any kind into this kind of thing. The book is nothing at all like it's title which may have even been invented by some marketing people or maybe it meant something paticular to Malcolm but within its pages Malcolm documents all kinds of stuff to do with the history of his own work and the cinema of exclusion. In paticular you should check out the whole section where there is a whole confrence type thing Between Malcolm and Stan Brakhage documented. It's exactly about this kind of thing. Malcolm comes across a bit as one of the head villans of the whole affair although I'm sure it's more complicated than that at that the cinema of exclusion is a bit the product of its environment. I'd love to see a book by Peter Gidal on the subject. Peter and Malcolm were best pals but Peter seems to be quite a bit of a mischeivious character calling his book materialist film which I suspect was partly to annoy Malcolm who hated the term for obvious reasons. I've heard rumour that Malcolm would in return tell Peter that his films were very beautiful, which would of course annoy the &£$$ out of him. Peter also quit in solidarity when all the women left, despite being one of the organisers of the event at the time himself! :)

 

Traditionally it's been quite hard to find books on the subject, and most of them are old and dusty things which contain the attitudes of the time, so you should definitely check out the David Curtis and Malcolm le Grice books. Materialist film is also worth checking out as it explains clearly all the political ideas behined the cinema of exclusion which are generally focussed in various positive left wing ideas. The road to hell is paved with good intentions! ;)

 

Hope that helps!

 

Oh bother! Now you made me go and burn my rice! ;)

 

love

 

Freya

 

Yes definitely am going to find that Le Grice book, and i was going to ask if you had read Film Art Phenomena by Nicky Hamlyn?

 

Also i realised wanting a "film art" magazine is stupid, because the course im moving to next year is a multidiscipline course, and im doing it because i want to be with people doing sculpture/painting even if i dont do </>. So i already knew my answer, which is. man up and buy frieze!

 

Ironically, another expressionist artist Edvard Munch DID make films!!!!

Unfortunately on the 9.5mm film formaat which I suspect is why they are basically impossible to see! That and the fact nobody seems to know they exist, but they are out there...somewhere!

 

love

 

Freya

 

haha, yeah i just wanted to lighten the mood of the thread! :)

 

You are confusing Stan with Oskar Fischinger who was a european artist from the weimar republic (Yay!) who also worked with abstract film. He fled to America some time later after the man with the bad facial hair came along and ruined everything, although to be fair, this is the kind of thing that happens when you base your entire economy on cheap credit, but there we go. Anyway he ended up joining Disney for a while.

 

...unless you were thinking of Tim Burton? ;)

 

love

 

Freya

 

And right yet again, i was meant to say to Oskar Fischinger, i just mixed both these artists up!

[Freya Black]

Yes definitely am going to find that Le Grice book, and i was going to ask if you had read Film Art Phenomena by Nicky Hamlyn?

 

Also i realised wanting a "film art" magazine is stupid, because the course im moving to next year is a multidiscipline course, and im doing it because i want to be with people doing sculpture/painting even if i dont do </>. So i already knew my answer, which is. man up and buy frieze!

 

I actually had no idea he had written a book! Great title! I just googled for it and it looks quite interesting and it looks like it is very NOW and up to date with the current "scene". I imagine nobody mentioned it to me because it might come across a bit like that scene in "coffee and cigarettes" where iggy pop and Tom waits are sat at the table talking about the jukebox. ;)

 

I must keep an eye out for it now!

Looks very interesting!

 

I think it's very positive to stay connected with people doing other art forms as it opens you to a greater scope of ideas in a way! Maybe you could even try some painting on film yourself!

 

Good luck with your films and videos!

 

love

 

Freya