EPIC first impressions

Daniel Porto · March 5, 2011

I did a shootout with 35mm, Super 16, RED MX, Alexa, a 1D and the F3. We're just in the middle of doing the film outs but the F3 was the worst performer in my opinion. I would say though we had an engineering prototype so it's possible a little unfair, but the codec is VERY limiting, along with the apparent DR of the camera. As I say, I personally haven't used a Sony camera by choice for a long time....I'll keep checking in on their progress, but they aren't really making cinema cameras that I want to use.

jb

I would love to hear your thoughts on this shootout... I assume you will be posting online?

John Brawley · March 5, 2011

I would love to hear your thoughts on this shootout... I assume you will be posting online?

As soon as the film out is finished, I'm booking a cinema and organizing a screening. I'll put you on the list if you're in Melbourne.

The results were....surprising. I've changed my mind several times about the advantages of each format as I've gone through the process. I was a lot more enamored of the Alexa until I actually started grading with it. Funnily enough at the moment, the RED MX seemed to get the closest to the 35mm footage in terms of how everything was sitting in terms of colour gamut and exposure range. That's probably going to change again once I get it back to film as well. I'm also planning to output the same material to DCP so I can compare them in both distribution mediums. The Alexa was great to use and operate, and I expected it to be more clearly ahead of the RED MX in terms of pictures as I'd been hearing so much about how much of an improvement it was from other sources.

Even the colorist was was reluctantly agreeing with me that the RED was just easier to match i the conditions we were shooting in. MInd you, I was only recording pro-res on the alexia. Maybe once they do RAW it'll be different.

As I said, the F3 was pretty awful in terms of colour, compression artifacts and it seemed to have a different kind of temporal cadence....motion was...more videoy ? I can't describe it any better than that....and again...i had a prototype / engineering version of the camera.

The 1D had it's place and is a great option for the size.....

The Super 16 looks great for a look, but ends up being pretty grainy once you put it against other formats. If you don't have anything to compare it with it actually has it's own look that could be very useful for the right project.

This was a low light test, basically shooting night and available light. I expected the 35mm not to do well at all, but it's still hard to beat.

jb

John Brawley · March 6, 2011

I have to respectfully disagree on this. If you follow some very simple guidelines - avoid damaged or dirty shims, line up the screw holes and do up the mounting screws with even tightness in opposing pairs - shimming is 100% foolproof. Takes me about 5 minutes and I've never had a problem.

If the Epic engineers were sensible that's how they've designed their camera - shim the mount to within tolerance, then allow a tiny adjustment to compensate for minute variations in lens back focus. Really, any professional cine lens that is out by more than a few hundredths of a mm (an imperial thou or two) probably has more issues than just back focus and shouldn't be used until a technician has checked it over. That kind of error usually means it's been dropped, damaged in transit or has a loose element.

Dom, I'm go going to take a wild guess here and assume you're a camera or lens technician of some kind ? Shimming a lens is something that can't really be don in the field. You need the right environment to be able to measure the depth and what's required for the shim. And the assumption that a *professional* cine lens shouldn't be out don't mean that they sometimes won't be. And you need to carry the right shims with you (and does anyone ?) And a rental company that would be happy with you pulling their camera mounts on and off in the field to re-shim them....

I hate the current RED lens mount system. The back focus adjustment is fiddly and prone to going out as you try to lock it in. But id rather that then a mount shim and an assumption that my *professional* cine lens is *right*.

jb

John Sprung · March 6, 2011

We're just in the middle of doing the film outs but the F3 was the worst performer in my opinion. I would say though we had an engineering prototype so it's possible a little unfair, but the codec is VERY limiting, along with the apparent DR of the camera.

Per the Sony booth guy at HD Expo last week, the F3 at this time is linear only. They expect to have S-log and an increase to ISO 1600 and more dynamic range enabled this summer. (For about a $4K uptick....)

-- J.S.

Vincent Sweeney · March 6, 2011

Per the Sony booth guy at HD Expo last week, the F3 at this time is linear only. They expect to have S-log and an increase to ISO 1600 and more dynamic range enabled this summer. (For about a $4K uptick....)

-- J.S.

Im in the middle of a lot of F3 (production model) testing right now, although with no film-out, but to see if it will work for something coming up. The upgrades are suppose to be more like $3400 but no one knows for sure as of this post.

I think this camera was meant to be recorded out to a better codec for serious work with it's 10bit HD-SDI option. I'll be shooting with one this coming week hooked to a KiPro to see what can be gathered from that. The camera is only $13k, by the way.

If anyone can offer any tips/articles on the Sony Cinealta menus, I'm interested!

Dom Jaeger · March 7, 2011

Dom, I'm go going to take a wild guess here and assume you're a camera or lens technician of some kind ? Shimming a lens is something that can't really be don in the field. You need the right environment to be able to measure the depth and what's required for the shim. And the assumption that a *professional* cine lens shouldn't be out don't mean that they sometimes won't be. And you need to carry the right shims with you (and does anyone ?) And a rental company that would be happy with you pulling their camera mounts on and off in the field to re-shim them....

I hate the current RED lens mount system. The back focus adjustment is fiddly and prone to going out as you try to lock it in. But id rather that then a mount shim and an assumption that my *professional* cine lens is *right*.

jb

Yes I'm a rental house technician here in Melbourne. I know, pedantic and annoying, and living in an ivory tower.. :D

I guess I'm applying rental house standards, where the lenses are constantly being checked, and assistants (hopefully) do tests before a shoot to catch any problems. A technician can then fine tune the back focus of a lens in-house if necessary. It always sounded arse-backwards to me when I heard stories of crews adjusting a RED mount to a particular lens, then having to set it back again afterwards.

But I can understand it's a handy feature sometimes, especially for owner-operators, as David pointed out. And if it works, it works.

Good job on Offspring, by the way. It was probably the best home-grown drama of 2010, IMHO. My only complaint is that the pub location was the Union Hotel, and every time I went to drop in there last year it was closed because you buggers were there filming. Now I hear there's a second season. I'm all for Australian content on our TV screens, but does it have to be my local? :P

John Brawley · March 8, 2011

Yes I'm a rental house technician here in Melbourne. I know, pedantic and annoying, and living in an ivory tower.. :D

I guess I'm applying rental house standards, where the lenses are constantly being checked, and assistants (hopefully) do tests before a shoot to catch any problems. A technician can then fine tune the back focus of a lens in-house if necessary. It always sounded arse-backwards to me when I heard stories of crews adjusting a RED mount to a particular lens, then having to set it back again afterwards.

But I can understand it's a handy feature sometimes, especially for owner-operators, as David pointed out. And if it works, it works.

Good job on Offspring, by the way. It was probably the best home-grown drama of 2010, IMHO. My only complaint is that the pub location was the Union Hotel, and every time I went to drop in there last year it was closed because you buggers were there filming. Now I hear there's a second season. I'm all for Australian content on our TV screens, but does it have to be my local? :P

Hi Dom....

Don't worry...some of my best friends are camera technicians.....;-)

It's interesting though to hear the war stories about RED and back focus....

I take the view that it should be set correctly in the first place, rather than optimized for each lens. I think in a way, there are always going to be slight variances in lenses anyway and it's a fools game to start chasing the lens markings for each lens....

Thanks for your kind words on Offspring. We were actually at the union yesterday ! And yes, we're shooting series 2 right now.... Next time you should drop by...you can check my back focus and I'll buy you a beer...

jb