Stupid Questions for smart DP's ;-)

Justin Marx · March 4, 2005

First of all, thank you for reading this..

I have recenetly been elected to DP a short film for a buddy of mine. Boy do I wish I paid attention all these years as I was 2nd ACing and Loading!!!!

Here's my deal.. We're getting only one stock--7246 (250D) and we have INT and exteriors to shoot. We're getting a cheap lighting package with no HMI's.

We have an INT. NIGHT kitchen scene at the small dinner table with 4 talent to shoot first thing in the morning.. The lights we will have access to are tungsten zips and fresnels. I want a cooler blue look. Dark backgrounds, subtle highlights in the BG as well. I'd like the actors faces to be brightly lit, some shadowing would be nice too.. I'd love to place some white showcard on the table and bang a light down on it for Close Ups? The TV show West Wing is a good example of what I am aiming for, but on the cool side..

Now to my questions.. Tungsten light, 250 daylight film..

1- How can I get this look I want with these ill powered lights?

2- What type of GEL or Filter would cut it? If thats the answer? I dont think I can afford 80a and it's 2 stops with this crappy light package?

3- To get the pronounced light on the face for the wide shot for all 4 talent, how can I do this without lighting the whole room? white table cloth? White Placemats? I really just want the actors face to stand out more than anything else..

4- Lets say the director changes his mind and says he wants a very WARM orange skin look, which I can see him doing in a heartbeat..

5- Will it be TOO warm if I dont do anything to the lights? What will it look like? To orange? or will it just be very warm?

Next we have an outdoor football scene.. fun fun... How can I match this blue look he wants.. (HE BETTER)

Thank you very much for your help! Sorry if this was asked a million times.. but I did search and didn't see anything that really matched my questions..

- - Justin

David Mullen ASC · March 4, 2005

You're screwed, sorry to say. You have tungsten lights and daylight film and you want a blue look??? The wrong tools for the job. I'd sell the film and buy something tungsten-balanced. Or replace the tungstens with HMI's and daylight Kinos...

Justin Marx · March 4, 2005

You're screwed, sorry to say. You have tungsten lights and daylight film and you want a blue look??? The wrong tools for the job. I'd sell the film and buy something tungsten-balanced. Or replace the tungstens with HMI's and daylight Kinos...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First of all.. Northfork! Amazing.. I'm a bit embarrassed to have my question answered by you.. An honor non the less.. If you don't mind, which stocks did you use?

You're right about the wrong tools for the job.. Pretty much the reason I was trying here. The story of my life..

Sell the film.. I wish! This is one of these deals that everything is given to us free and the time constraints wont allow for a trade..

*What will it look like if I just shoot it with the tungsten lights and the 250D. Ive never worked on a job where that has been the case.. Will it be warm? blown out orange?

Do you think the tungsten lights will give me enough to at least create the look I want without the blue? I'll have to sacrifice the blue and try see if we can do something in post.

I would love to get a nice high speed tungsten film and a set of ND's for my INT/EXT.. Oh well..

Thank you sir for all of your help! If you ever shoot anything in South Florida, I would love to come on as your do-boy.. :-)

- - Justin Marx

Chris Keth · March 4, 2005

First of all.. Northfork! Amazing.. I'm a bit embarrassed to have my question answered by you.. An honor non the less.. If you don't mind, which stocks did you use?

You're right about the wrong tools for the job.. Pretty much the reason I was trying here. The story of my life..

Sell the film.. I wish! This is one of these deals that everything is given to us free and the time constraints wont allow for a trade..

*What will it look like if I just shoot it with the tungsten lights and the 250D. Ive never worked on a job where that has been the case.. Will it be warm? blown out orange?

Do you think the tungsten lights will give me enough to at least create the look I want without the blue? I'll have to sacrifice the blue and try see if we can do something in post.

I would love to get a nice high speed tungsten film and a set of ND's for my INT/EXT.. Oh well..

Thank you sir for all of your help! If you ever shoot anything in South Florida, I would love to come on as your do-boy.. :-)

- - Justin Marx

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It won't be blown out anything unless you expose it such. It will just be a fairly overwhelming orange all over. Surely you've seen daylight film shot inside (or a video camera balance for daylight under interior lights.)

Your biggest problem might be getting an exposure at all, if you do blue, or even correct to be normal. The proper correction filter sap about 2 stops, I believe. That's going to be tough to deal with.

David Mullen ASC · March 4, 2005

The image will be fairly orange; you can time it to neutral in post but you sometimes cause some colors in the frame to shift. "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" was all shot on 500D stock mostly in tungsten light for night scenes and the orange was timed out digitally. "Emma" was all shot on 250D stock with some tungsten lights at night but they were going for a warm candlelit look.

You could try putting 1/4 or 1/2 CTB on every light to at least pull some of the orange out and then timing out the rest in post.

I shot "Northfork" all on tungsten stocks (Fuji F-125T and F-400T) in uncorrected daylight and timed half the blue out in post, sort of the opposite to what you'd be doing.

When you have lemons, make lemonade: convince the director to go for a warm look.

Justin Marx · March 4, 2005

The image will be fairly orange; you can time it to neutral in post but you sometimes cause some colors in the frame to shift. "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" was all shot on 500D stock mostly in tungsten light for night scenes and the orange was timed out digitally. "Emma" was all shot on 250D stock with some tungsten lights at night but they were going for a warm candlelit look.

You could try putting 1/4 or 1/2 CTB on every light to at least pull some of the orange out and then timing out the rest in post.

I shot "Northfork" all on tungsten stocks (Fuji F-125T and F-400T) in uncorrected daylight and timed half the blue out in post, sort of the opposite to what you'd be doing.

When you have lemons, make lemonade: convince the director to go for a warm look.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you very much for all of your input! I think I will just try and convince the director that he will be sacrificing quality/time for the blue that he wants and to just try and make it work with the warmer orange.. Here's your lemonade. :P

Laurent Andrieux · March 4, 2005

When you have lemons, make lemonade

I Looooove this one ! :D

One point about color shifting in post... Mind that if you can quite easily correct the highlights (though I would say a 1/2 CTB would be better than leaving them clear) the lowlights will be more even affected by the shift. When one has broken its 85 when shooting ext day with tungsten stock should overexpose a bit...

Edited March 4, 2005 by laurent.a

Landon D. Parks · March 5, 2005

I dont know much about the subject, but couldn't you throw a blue filter over the lights or put a blue filter in the camera to get the "Blue" look. I dont know what this would do to the color balance of the film though. Since I know nothing about it. Just a suggestion. Athough you will lose light.

PS) I just seem someone already said this, I was not paying much attention aparently. Sorry.

Edited March 5, 2005 by Landon D. Parks

David Mullen ASC · March 5, 2005

I dont know much about the subject, but couldn't you throw a blue filter over the lights or put a blue filter in the camera to get the "Blue" look.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If he's shooting daylight stock with tungsten lights, he'd need to put one layer of Full CTB on the lights just to correct from orange to white -- that's two stops lost in light output. If he added another Full CTB to make it look blue, that would be a four-stop loss total. Same with a blue camera filter -- he'd be losing two stops of light just to correct to white. His 250 ASA film would be an effective 64 ASA film.

Justin Marx · March 5, 2005

If he's shooting daylight stock with tungsten lights, he'd need to put one layer of Full CTB on the lights just to correct from orange to white -- that's two stops lost in light output. If he added another Full CTB to make it look blue, that would be a four-stop loss total. Same with a blue camera filter -- he'd be losing two stops of light just to correct to white. His 250 ASA film would be an effective 64 ASA film.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm pretty sure I cant afford the 2 stop loss. Otherwise I would have just gone with the 80a and be done with it..

Thanks again David..

Laurent Andrieux · March 5, 2005

Putting full ctb or a 80a on the camera has the exact same result of a 2 stops loss...

March 6, 2005

Just to sweeten David's Lemonade, can't you use the 80a but also push the 7246 a stop, or a stop and a half, maybe two stops? Go with the grain and maybe flash to lower contrast if it's too much.