Dealing with high contrast camera negative

[Thomas Worth]

My understanding is that camera negative is generally low contrast, and when printed to a positive (projected) stock the image looks correct since the positive stock is higher contrast. My question is, if the originating negative is already high contrast (like reversal cross-processed or still camera negative), how do you cut down the contrast to match the positive print stock? Would you have to go through another couple printing steps, like to an interpositive and then an internegative? I'm sure the process is more complex but I'd appreciate some type of explanation nonetheless!

[Patrick Neary]

Hi- I think you nip it in the bud by not shooting cross-processed reversal if you're concerned about high contrast! :)

[Thomas Worth]

Hi- I think you nip it in the bud by not shooting cross-processed reversal if you're concerned about high contrast! :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do want the high contrast. I am just concerned about even more contrast when printing to a print stock designed for low contrast negative. The cross-processed reversal would be a high-contrast negative (as would still film processed C-41), and since the print stock is "expecting" a low-contrast negative, I'm worried that the contrast will be boosted to ridiculous levels. I'm trying to avoid that.

[Mike Williamson]

Patrick's suggestion is pretty on the mark, but there are solutions to lowering contrast while printing. I would also note that it is the printing process itself that increases contrast in the same way that optically duplicating anything results in a more contrasty image (think of making a xerox, then copying the xerox and so on...)

 

In the July 1998 issue of American Cinematographer, Lance Accord talks about shooting "Buffalo '66" which was shot on regularly processed Kodak VNF reversal (5239). In the printing process, they post-flashed the internegative to control the contrast between scenes, as the development process for the camera reversal was being tested out on this film as they shot! It's an interesting article on developing, very much worth a read. I think Accord talks more about it in the book "New Cinematographers".

[John Pytlak RIP]

When you cross-process a film, you are using it in a non-standard way to achieve a certain "look". You cannot expect every eventuality of a non-standard use of a film to be accomodated.

 

Some labs offer print processes that leave silver in the final image, which will INCREASE the final contrast.

 

One option would be to print onto Kodak VISION Color Teleprint Film 2395/3395, which is lower in contrast and normally used for making prints intended for telecine transfer:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products...1.4.8.4.3&lc=en

 

 

Note that teleprint film normally is not used with optical soundtracks, so performance of any soundtrack printed onto it is not optimized.

[Sam Wells]

Flash the IP, but you must test this --

 

The first thing to do is just print a section of your negative, you might like it; or, you'll have a better idea of where you need to go.

 

But when you've locked in a look and then you want to unlock it I dunno....

 

I'd almost be tempted to print on Vision Premiere, why go only part way crazy ? B)

 

-Sam

[Dominic Case]

do want the high contrast. I am just concerned about even more contrast when printing to a print stock designed for low contrast negative.

But contrast is only a relative term. It won't be "even more contrast".

 

If you are asking about how to make the print contrast match the high contrast of your neg, then you are really asking about how to make the final printed image have normal contrast. So to say that you DO want high contrast seems to contradict that.

 

If your neg gives you the wrong result when you print it, then maybe you need to choose a different neg stock or process.

[David Mullen ASC]

I agree -- if you WANT increased contrast & color, then use cross-processing. But if you don't want more contrast in the printed image, avoid it unless you are willing to lose some of the unique look.

 

For example, you can flash film to lower contrast, thereby weakening the blacks and softening the colors, but that sort of contradicts the point of using cross-process.

 

If you are shooting for print, everything gets the same contrast boost going onto the print stock. It sounds like you want something halfway in contrast between normal neg-to-print and cross-processed reversal, now a neg, going to print so that the printed image has less contrast (I was going to say "less contrast, more like you were directly projecting the original", but the trouble is that the cross-processed film is now a negative so it can't look correct projected directly so what IS its inherent pre-printed look? The look of a direct telecine transfer I guess...)

 

Trouble is that there is no half-way process. You can flash the film but you will lose some of the rich colors that is the whole point of the process.

 

The only possible solution is a digital intermediate for a half-way to cross-process look -- while one can probably digitally "milk-up" the scanned cross-processed film enough to mitigate some of the effect, it would probably be better to color-correct a negative digitally to achieve that look (increased saturation, increased contrast) because you'll have more control over how much shadow information you decide to keep.

[Thomas Worth]

Let me just state what I'm trying to do, and we'll see if someone can figure this out:

 

1. Shoot reversal in the camera, and have it cross-processed in negative chemistry. (So I now have a negative with strange colors).

2. Print to a print stock for projection while maintaining the contrast and look of the cross processed negative.

 

Example: I shoot a roll of reversal stock through my SLR. I have it cross-processed and then have the photo place make a contact print to paper stock. The reason I specify this is because most photo places print photos using a Fuji Frontier or similar device, which scans the film and then prints to photo paper using some digital / laser method. I don't want this because I don't want there to be any possibility of the device compensating for exposure or color shift. Now that I have my contact print and am satisfied with the result, would printing these exact negatives to motion picture print stock produce a similar result? In other words, will it look like the contact sheet? My hypothesis is that it will not, because motion picture negative has much less contrast / more latitude than reversal. And since the print stock is meant to be printed to from this low contrast negative, the resulting image looks normal (not low contrast).

 

I hope I'm making sense. :huh: And please correct any inaccuracies!

[David Mullen ASC]

It's not possible. Neg-to-print is a SYSTEM designed together, as well as the intermediate stocks, to create a FINAL image with sufficient contrast to reproduce decent blacks on the screen without unnatural contrast.

 

The gamma of reversal film is designed to already be as high as neg-to-print TOGETHER because it is designed for direct projetion.

 

So the gamma of the print stock will ALWAYS add contrast -- as it was designed to do. Even back when there were special stocks for making prints off of reversal originals, there was always an increase in contrast, hence why Kodak used to make a lower-contrast reversal original stock meant for printing from (ECO.)

 

You'd need some sort of non-existent print stock with the low gamma of intermediate dupe stock. You could try teleprint (low-con) film I guess but it's not going to work like you want it to.

 

Your only option is to do a digital intermediate where you have some ability to flatten out the image enough to handle the increase in contrast of printing from the recorded IN. But in that case, you might as well shoot color neg and create a semi-cross-process look meant for printing.

 

If you are shooting for PRINT, you HAVE to consider the "look" of cross-processing as the look of the PRINT made off of that cross-processed negative. Otherwise, it's like asking that a print made off of a normal negative end up with the gamma of the original negative. It's a NEG-to-POS system.

[Sam Wells]

I think it's not all that useful to compare gammas of paper prints and film prints as the viewing conditions are inherently different.

 

-Sam

[K Borowski]

Here's my question: There's a lab down in Florida that makes slides from C-41 negatives using Vision Movie Print film. I once asked something similar to what Thomas is asking (no cross processing, but C-41 also has a higher contrast than ECN-2), but the girl I got on the phone didn't know and I didn't want to press the issue. In any case, the slides from negatives look good. How does a lab get consistant, normal-contrast results doing something you say is impossible because of the whole ECN-2 -> ECP SYSTEM involved? I don't see any build-up in contrast, and I can't imagine them mass-flashing print film in their setup. Also, I am wondering if the ECN-2 films themselves are inherently of a different contrast than C-41 films, or if the processing chemistry affects the results too.

 

Regards.

~Karl Borowski

[John Pytlak RIP]

Here's my question: There's a lab down in Florida that makes slides from C-41 negatives using Vision Movie Print film.  I once asked something similar to what Thomas is asking (no cross processing, but C-41 also has a higher contrast than ECN-2), but the girl I got on the phone didn't know and I didn't want to press the issue.  In any case, the slides from negatives look good.  How does a lab get consistant, normal-contrast results doing something you say is impossible because of the whole ECN-2 -> ECP SYSTEM involved?  I don't see any build-up in contrast, and I can't imagine them mass-flashing print film in their setup.  Also, I am wondering if the ECN-2 films themselves are inherently of a different contrast than C-41 films, or if the processing chemistry affects the results too.

 

Regards.

~Karl Borowski

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Kodak still films in the C-41 process tend to be higher in contrast than the motion picture color negatives in ECN-2, mainly to give better looking images when paper prints viewed by reflected light are made. When you print motion picture negatives onto paper, or still film negatives onto VISION Color Print Film, you are mixing two different systems. There can also be a difference in "printing density" relationships and possible contrast mismatch. But the differences are usually within a few percent, so the "cross printed" images might be acceptable under some conditions.