How much should your High Production Value Short film cost?

[Freya Black]

Well,

 

I remember a while ago looking up some of these "This giant monster versus that giant monster" sy fy films that were getting made, some of there were like 500k but some where we like 4 million....granted they were the usual "mockbuster" types.

 

I'm not sure quite what you are talking about here. I suspect you might be referring to movies made by "The Asylum". Such movies are usually not just made for just for sci-fi channel and have DVD releases etc.

 

I don't think you are making a good comparison if you are looking at very established players in the industry and trying to compare them to your own situation. I mean why stop with Asylum, why not look at Steven Speilberg or someone.

 

If you are some nobody with no real track record your value is going to be a lot less than even the established low budget operations.

 

It's a lot, lot harder out there than you seem to be imagining from the way you are talking.

Looking at historical examples is also often flawed because the market is constantly changing.

DVD sales for example have been decimated, meaning there is now no longer the same kind of opportunities for new entrants to the market.

 

Freya

[Brett Bailey]

Bruce Campbell dicussing his experience(s) on Evil Dead were very interesting. I enjoyed his candor in this video.

[Freya Black]

 

How?

 

Your earlier post seemed to be saying that you needed to produce something of quality.

Your later post seems to suggest that it's more about sales skill.

 

I think there is some truth to both, but I think the latter is more the case.

If you can make it look like something of quality then that can't hurt your sales case tho can it?

Having said that it's probably mostly just important that you make sure the trailer looks great at the start of the movie. First impressions last.

 

Freya

Edited December 12, 2013 by Freya Black

[Freya Black]

If I were to approach making a short now, I would attempt to make something for youtube. Something shorter than 40 minutes tho. Probably something either supposedly funny, or featuring kittens a lot. In that case I would set out to make a LOT of tiny shorts on as low a budget as possible. Maybe something like 60 shorts in the 7-10 minute range.

 

Otherwise I'd try and make a feature film.

I think you suggested that you knew a lot of people who tried to make a feature film and didn't finish it.

Do you know how much an unfinished feature is worth?

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

It's VERY hard to make a feature of any kind. The problem with making high quality shorts is that it will make you realise just how hard and difficult it is to make a feature film.

 

Of the people who make a feature film, it has been discovered that hardly any of them go on to make another one.

Some of these people are shocked by the hard realities of the situation, others exhaust all they have making the first one.

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

 

Your earlier post seemed to be saying that you needed to produce something of quality.

Your later post seems to suggest that it's more about sales skill.

 

I think there is some truth to both, but I think the latter is more the case.

If you can make it look like something of quality then that can't hurt your sales case tho can it?

Having said that it's probably mostly just important that you make sure the trailer looks great at the start of the movie. First impressions last.

 

Freya

 

This came out really garbled sorry. Was trying to type and have a conversation here at the same time.

 

I meant to say make sure the trailer looks great and to make sure that the start of your movie looks great because first impressions last.

 

Freya

[Phil Rhodes]

Your earlier post seemed to be saying that you needed to produce something of quality.

Your later post seems to suggest that it's more about sales skill.

I'm not sure you need to produce something of quality, but it really depends whether you're interested in making a good movie or making money. In an ideal world you'd do both.

[James Steven Beverly]

 

 

"Of the people who make a feature film, it has been discovered that hardly any of them go on to make another one.

Some of these people are shocked by the hard realities of the situation, others exhaust all they have making the first one.

 

Freya"

 

Woosies! :D

[Daniel Mooney]

"Some of these people are shocked by the hard realities of the situation, others exhaust all they have making the first one."

That's my biggest fear. I'm no idiot, I know that just making a kickstarter isn't enough. I've seen too many people do that. They put down they need ten grand. They make a video, pleading for the money. They share, every facebook group they can (which I don't understand, who in a indie filmmaker facebook group is going to give you money they can use for their own film?), they post everyday for weeks on end. You log in, 34 notifications "Welp Bob must be sharing his kickstarter again"..... Yep.

Everyone knows I make movies, hell I was just talking to a guy I went to High School with about this and he said he'd throw me 50 bucks right of the back on kickstarter. Never even thought he would donated anything. I've advertisted for a very long time that I wanna make movies and while lots of people I know have dropped on their dreams, I haven't. I hope that this might lead to more people taking a chance. But when all that is said and done - I might walk away with just four grand. I grew up in a working poor neighbhorhood right outside of Philly. I'm not gonna make 100k in just donations, not when I know some people are just trying to get enough for rent this month.

But they say "Never spend your own money." So that means calling favors, begging, maxing out credit cards, etc.

When it's all said and done, I'm seeing alot of people do that and it goes no where.

I was always told that if you worked hard and never give up, that your dreams would come true. But I know too many 45 year old guys, living with their folks, working a day job and shooting wedding videos on the weekend, thumping their chest and telling me that "one day they will become Speilberg". And they've been doing this for decades more then I have (I'm 25).

Kinda scary. LOL.

Thanks again for all the posts, I'm taking them all into consideration. Please continue to post, because right now this has given me more questions then answers O_0.

Dan

[Guest]

But they say "Never spend your own money." So that means calling favors, begging, maxing out credit cards, etc.

 

Well that's what I did, spent my own money. I viewed it as an investment in my professional development, I never would of invested 100K in someone else's movie and let them have the director credit. My point in spending the money was so that I could have the director credit. BTW, if you max out your credit card....you HAVE spent your money.

 

In your case to be honest, I would not jump into a low budget feature at this stage. You're likely to make too many mistakes, and make something that is totally un-sellable. This is the norm really.

 

If I were you I would make a couple of shorts first, with you acting as producer and director. You will learn invaluable skills from this that will set you up to make a low budget first feature. At only 25 you clearly have time on your side, that's not an issue.

 

Don't worry about getting the shorts into festivals or getting 5 million views on Youtube. I certainly would not spend anything like 100K on a short film. I would target 3-5K. Think like a producer, utilize the resources you have at your disposal, think in terms of what you have vs what you don't have. Have access to a great location via a friend? Write a short script around that.

 

Don't bother with union actors, hire people from a local theatre group. Target a final run time of no more than 10 mins. Do at least a couple before you blow someone else's 100K on a low budget feature.

 

R,

[Guest]

"Of the people who make a feature film, it has been discovered that hardly any of them go on to make another one.

Some of these people are shocked by the hard realities of the situation, others exhaust all they have making the first one.

 

Freya"

 

Woosies! :D

 

That can happen. Neither of the guys that made successful first features, Open Water, or Primer, signed 10 picture studio deals. Then again there other guys with "projects in development" that are represented by CAA. One thing you can never apply in the movie business is logic.

 

R,

[Freya Black]

 

That can happen. Neither of the guys that made successful first features, Open Water, or Primer, signed 10 picture studio deals. Then again there other guys with "projects in development" that are represented by CAA. One thing you can never apply in the movie business is logic.

 

R,

 

That's a good point. Stuff can happen even if you win the jackpot. Of course Shane did go on to make a second movie. I'm not sure about the open water guy tho.

 

I was more just talking about people who make an indie movie at all. The vast majority of them never make a second one apparently.

 

Freya

Edited December 12, 2013 by Freya Black

[Freya Black]

I didn't realise that Dan was only 25! :)

 

Dan I'm not sure how much stuff you have made so far, but I recommend just doing stuff and seeing what happens.

In my experience doing stuff leads to things, even if they are small things.

 

If you havn't made a bunch of shorts already I would do that. It's good practice. Just don't waste a ton of money on them!

 

Then take a stab at making something feature length on the same basis. It's different making a full length movie to making shorts. So I'd just try and make a feature for virtually no money again. You will learn a lot from the process and will also learn if you want to make movies at all.

 

Then you can start thinking about making something bigger with everything you have learned.

 

There are a lot of people out there, it would seem, who found their way into film making because they thought it was going to be some kind of "get rich scheme" and then are really miserable and whining about it even when they have some success!

 

If you aren't really that into making the movies, then move onto something else as there's much easier ways to make money.

 

Freya

[James Steven Beverly]

Look, There's no real secret.You want to make movies, learn how to write, learn how to write well, learn how to write commercially well. You want art, go to the Louvre. NOBODY is interested in small, personal dramas of angst and pain, save those for once you're established and then you do 2 for them and one for you. It usually takes 2 to 3 years to find the money for the project so tenacity is essential. Networking is the single best way to get to decision makers and the key to that is being personable and engaging. People like to work with people they like. They also like to work with people who are reasonable so put you ego in neutral and think strategically when speaking to someone who holds your dreams in his hands, the whole plan is to get the first one made and THAT'S going to involve compromise, like it or not. Funding a film yourself is a strategy. It has worked for many people BUT if one is talented, it maybe a better strategy to get to the people who fund films for a living. The one way to capitalize on a short is to make a short from your feature script as a teaser, a short film proof of concept that shows the potential of the picture. Graphic novel style promotional material is also being utilized for the same purpose. Though I've never tried it, it has worked for other people. A good pitch is everything. If you're oblivious on how to talk to people, you should check out Stephanie Palmer at:

 

goodinaroom.com/‎

 

She is the go to person for that.

[Guest]

NOBODY is interested in small, personal dramas of angst and pain,

 

If you have such a script I will immediately submit it to TeleFilm Canada.

 

R,

[Phil Rhodes]

 

 

If you're oblivious on how to talk to people, you should check out Stephanie Palmer

 

Am I the only person here who finds this entire concept absolutely vomititious?

 

We're no longer evaluating a product on its quality, we're evaluating it on the basis of whether the people who made it are, aww, really nice, and good fun at parties, and had really nice clothes. Tell me more, tell me more, like does he have a car?

 

I can only make reference to the same thing I used the other day.

 

 

I'm sure all the people responsible for that were good in a room.

[Freya Black]

 

Am I the only person here who finds this entire concept absolutely vomititious?

 

We're no longer evaluating a product on its quality, we're evaluating it on the basis of whether the people who made it are, aww, really nice, and good fun at parties, and had really nice clothes. Tell me more, tell me more, like does he have a car?

 

 

I don't know about vomititous but theres some very nasty facts about the way the world is. Ignoring the facts is definitely one option if you are able to maintain that for a long time.

 

The other option is to confront and come to terms with the facts.

Fantasy can be great fun tho, which explains the popularity of narrative movies.

 

Freya

[James Steven Beverly]

 

If you have such a script I will immediately submit it to TeleFilm Canada.

 

R,

LOL :lol:

[James Steven Beverly]

 

Am I the only person here who finds this entire concept absolutely vomititious?

 

We're no longer evaluating a product on its quality, we're evaluating it on the basis of whether the people who made it are, aww, really nice, and good fun at parties, and had really nice clothes. Tell me more, tell me more, like does he have a car?

 

I can only make reference to the same thing I used the other day.

 

 

I'm sure all the people responsible for that were good in a room.

Well, I find that a rather broad statement. Looking and acting like you're someone a decision maker would want to work with is just one element of a strategy. Of course if you feel the need to dress like a bum, be rude and act defensive to set yourself apart, give it a shot. There are no rules in Hollywood but you break them at your own peril and who says these scripts are not 'quality' for what they are? The fact of the matter is, being a business, decision makers are going to go with what they think they can sell. If you're dealing with lower budgets, you may not have Chris Nolan writing your script. There is no perfection, just varying degrees of compromise so if you are a conscientious film maker you make the best movie you can with what you have to work with. Being good in a room simply means you don't XXXX up your chances of selling what you consider a script worth making by tripping over your own feet. You go in poised and prepared with a confidence that infects those around you. If you can give them the confidence to believe in what you see, they may actually give you the money to make it into a movie. One other thing, my views on cooperate excess are well documented here on this forum so there's no need to turn the discussion into something it's not. Take my advice for what it's worth. Use it or don't. There is no one way to make a film happen and if you have any better ideas, I'm all ears.

Edited December 12, 2013 by James Steven Beverly

[Daniel Mooney]

Very good replies Gentlemen,

I have half a dozen shorts and a web series under my name. But of course, what does that mean? Nothing to thump my chest about. I also have two failed features under my belt - yes I was that guy, as I said before, thinking "Ooh it's the digital age, I can just get this camera and get some local actors and make a movie and it will be golden!"

Almost all of them are dramatic, WWII pieces which no one cares about. I have a real f#$%ing 70 ton German tank roaming around in the first episode of my web series and the most I get is a "neato" from close friends. Most won't even watch it.

The first feature I could right a book about, everything went wrong. My van (it was a road trip movie and it was character in the movie) was totaled, one of my actors was deployed in the middle of the movie to Afghanistan for nine months, the other main actor disappeared for three weeks and when he came back refused to tell me what happened to him and shortly disappeared forever a month later, I was shooting guerilla so cops and angry land owners were always a problem

Second feature collapsed and I later recycled it's footage into a completely different short.

Finishing up my latest short now, but my audio engineer was a fluke - he never checked the levels, never wore his headset and I had made the mistaken of NOT doing sync sound at his his suggestion. All the audio was screwed up, ended up cutting it down to almost no dialogue - which actually makes it better, but it still needs one more scene shot and I've sort of felt it's not worth bothering with.

I'm sort at a point where doing another short just seems....unnecessary. Like I'm just delaying the inevitable.

Here's the other thing, if your not shelling out money, then every thing is all up in the air. Locations, actors, everything is that is begged/borrowed can be just as easily taken away. I'm goddam tired of people promising me this or that, or to help out or act - the negating and I'm stuck having a nervous breakdown the night before.

I worked as PA on Transformers 2 and The Last Airbender. I see how these guys work, none of them care about the movie, being a part of it, they care about MONEY. When I see a movie come into town, I'm just as giddy as school girl. They just eye **(obscenity removed)** it and then call the IATSE agent in town to see if their bringing "out of towners" for this one and if not, if there is anything left. Hell, lot of them don't even watch movies. Most of them, you ask them their favorite movie and it's like "Gladiator" because that was probably the last movie they saw in theater.

So it's kind of like, I know I can not just put on a beret and declare that I am going to make the greatest film ever while I stand on my pile poop shorts.

But on the other hand, I feel if I make another short all "copy, credit, shooting in one location with two actors and alot of dialogue - with an end result of having to twists someone's arm behind their back to watch it" - then I'm gonna snap :-P LOL

Hence my thought of doing an HPV film. Short or not, at least it's something different then the usual "Hey lets film in my basement and use what I can find to make a short film idea" sort of stuff.

Keep it coming guys, I've gotten more education here then 15k I paid for my AD in Film ever gave me. :-)

Dan

Edited December 12, 2013 by Daniel Mooney

[Daniel Mooney]

In case anyone is interested.

 

You can see the first episode of my webseries at the bottom with links to others at the top. It has a tank and some really cool props, lot of which are orginal from the 40s. It was really fun to do, not fun to have to force people to watch. Apparently WWII is not in unless your last name is Speilberg. Guess I got that message late. :-(

 

If anything, at least this might give YOU guys an idea of my skills. I want be a director, well really the whole "writer/producer/director" package like I guess everyone else probably wants to be. I had to do all the shots myself because DOP dropped out on day one. Luckily one of my actors turned out to also have some pretty good DOP skills, better then mine. He saved thing from being wideshot central LOL.

http://www.tinmachinefilms.com/

Edited December 12, 2013 by Daniel Mooney

[Guest]

I see how these guys work, none of them care about the movie, being a part of it, they care about MONEY.

 

No one will ever be as passionate about the movie than you will be, ever. The crew are all hired mercenaries, parachuting in for the production, and then moving on once the enemy has been defeated.

 

Now I do find that most department heads do not fall into this category, many go above and beyond the call of duty. Putting in hours on an indie project that they don't bill for just because they love the project and you as a filmmaker.

 

Each new film is like your child, and you will have to watch the free market knock the living crap out of your child once it is complete. The critics and distributors will savage your child, call it ugly and stupid. Just remember never give them the satisfaction of letting them see you cry. Be a man...go into the bathroom and lock the door for that. :D

 

R,

[Guest]

I watched some of your Partisans piece, great job pulling together period set pieces and costumes, etc. That is very hard to do on a budget. I think the main issues are the shooting and directing. The director and DOP need a bit more experience in how to put scenes together. Swinging the camera back and forth to cover a conversation won't cut it in today's market place. I know the director may have wanted to create a "style" perhaps?

 

Film is very much like an 8 cylinder engine, all 8 cylinders have to fire or the engine just won't run right. This is were Hollywood maintains an enormous advantage they have the money to hire the best of the very best to ensure that all 8 cylinders will fire properly. What the public thinks of the end result is anybody's guess.

 

R,

[James Steven Beverly]

 

Just remember never give them the satisfaction of letting them see you cry. Be a man...go into the bathroom and lock the door for that. :D

 

R,

:D Great line!! What sucks is you wrote it down so now you own the copyright and I can't steal it for a script!

[Guest]

 

Just remember never give them the satisfaction of letting them see you cry. Be a man...go into the bathroom and lock the door for that. :D

 

R,

:D Great line!! What sucks is you wrote it down so now you own the copyright and I can't steal it for a script!

 

 

Bah, you can have it, I got a million of em.

 

R,

[James Steven Beverly]

GREAT!!! I JUST started a script using this line as a basis called "Crying in the Bathroom' ® which is a small, personal drama of angst and pain that I plan to immediately submit it to TeleFilm Canada once it's finished.

Edited December 13, 2013 by James Steven Beverly