Revenge of the Sith

[Tenolian Bell]

I've found more information on Sony's 4K projector. Sony's SXRD technology is not pure LCD it is based on LCOS (Liquid Crystal On Silicon).

 

LCOS uses the best of LCD and DLP. LCOS is a reflective technology like DLP but uses liquid crystals instead of individual mirrors. The liquid crystals open and close, the light is reflected or blocked from the main mirror. LCOS uses three chips representing RGB simultaneously instead of a spinning color wheel like in DLP. LCOS and LCD deliver all three color channels continuously while DLP alternates color with its spinning wheel.

 

The one big advantage LCOS has over LCD or DLP is a high fill factor, less space between pixels. That eliminates the screen door effect. LCOS pixels render smoother edges than micro mirrors in DLP.

 

From what I've read LCOS is inherently very high resolution. Most LCOS sensors natively output at least SXGA, rarely are made for XGA, and none are made for VGA.

[Guest fstop]

I was very pleased with Tattersall's work- ESPECIALLY the scene in which Annakin and Padme rendezvous at the pillar, all of which is lit by a single source soft back/side light with NO fill, leaving the artists wrapped in shadow. I noticed throughout actually that Tattersall was very inventive in cloaking the bad performances in shadow- too bad he didn't work this one out on the other two movies. Anyway, at least finally Tattersall has proven on this franchise that he IS still the guy who shot Darabont's last two movies SO well.

 

There were a few low light scenes- actually many instances overall- where I felt I was watching something with extreme noise reduction- I would have been far more impressed in those sequences shot in warmer colours or/with lower light such as Annakin and Palpatine talking in his office in front of all that bronze if they'd just let the noise be- I guess directors and producers run away from noise in fear, but I certainly felt that without it the images become very flat and plastic, kind of defeating the point of filming in moody low light to begin with! It seems even nuttier to remove it when one considers theres a smeary promist look to the picture anyway, so it's not like they sought pin sharp photographic visuals. Does anyone else feel/appreciate where I am coming from?

Edited May 26, 2005 by fstop

[Guest Kai.w]

Saw it yesterday digitally projected. Though I think the movie itself fails at quite a few points, mainly dialogues and acting there was enough in it for me to keep me satisfied.

All in all I thought I felt the visual style of this movie was quite refreshing. I'm sure there are a lot of people who do not like it and there are definately projects where these aesthetics are not appropriate but I quite enjoyed it here. The clean, stable, flatness, the colors (down to the sets and props), many things that are avoided quite often seemed to work quite well here.

I also found the softened look sometimes a little too much, but I'm uncertain whether thats an HD problem (there were some shots of palpatine which looked unusual sharp).

Could not see any pixels or aliasing but once again, I sat rather far away from the screen.

Colorwise I could not see much problems except for some reds on the lavaplanet but I find it hard to say whether that was a projection or grading issue.

The CG has definately improved over the last years. Stuff like global illumination and subsurface scattering actually being used in real productions had brought some new leves of realism. Of course yoda still sort of looks fake, but so did the yoda in the old trilogy, just different.

My favorite parts:

 

The sunset over the city when anakin gets his first doubts.

 

When the stormtroopers get their order to kill the yedis. One of the few sequences that could actually move me at least a little.

 

 

-k

[Sam Wells]

Tenolian - sorry to act like your proofreader today but the Cinema Chip and other high-end DLP's use 3 chips. Only the inexpensive ones use a single chip and color wheel.

 

Does SONY actually have any of the 4K SXRD machines up and running in any theater ?

 

-Sam

[Max Jacoby]

I thought the film looked like a Playstation game on an LCD screen. The actors looked once again softer than the background and I do feel very sorry for Natalie Portman because of the way she looked in her very last scene. The close-up on her face was simply appalling. Whoever is responsible for these horrible videoish, plasticky skintones should seriously consider changing professions.

[Guest Kai.w]

I thought the film looked like a Playstation game on an LCD screen. The actors looked once again softer than the background and I do feel very sorry for Natalie Portman because of the way she looked in her very last scene. The close-up on her face was simply appalling. Whoever is responsible for these horrible videoish, plasticky skintones should seriously consider changing professions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That sounds like a weird dogma....

 

-k

[Tenolian Bell]

Tenolian - sorry to act like your proofreader today but the Cinema Chip and other high-end DLP's use 3 chips. Only the inexpensive ones use a single chip and color wheel.

 

Does SONY actually have any of the 4K SXRD machines up and running in any theater ?

 

-Sam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

OK. I was only going by what I was reading.

 

I saw the 4K projector at NAB.

 

From what I've read Landmark theaters are supposed to be buying a bunch of them.

[Brad Grimmett]

I thought the film looked like a Playstation game on an LCD screen. The actors looked once again softer than the background and I do feel very sorry for Natalie Portman because of the way she looked in her very last scene. The close-up on her face was simply appalling. Whoever is responsible for these horrible videoish, plasticky skintones should seriously consider changing professions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree, especially about Portman's last scene. She looked horrendous. I think bad makeup had a bit to do with it as well. It seemed like every closeup in the movie was soft except for that one, and it should have been.

This movie was much better than the last two at least, no thanks to the writing and directing.

[David Mullen ASC]

I agree, especially about Portman's last scene.  She looked horrendous.  I think bad makeup had a bit to do with it as well. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

SPOILER

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, she WAS dead... maybe that's what embalming is like in the Star Wars universe.

[Max Jacoby]

SPOILER

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, she WAS dead...  maybe that's what embalming is like in the Star Wars universe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I had forgotten about that scene!

 

I meant the one where she was giving birth. Absolutely horrendous.

 

Since when it is a dogma to expect actresses to look good in a film anyway?

[Guest Kai.w]

Since when it is a dogma to expect actresses to look good in a film anyway?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I don't know I guess for quite some time ;-) I was more referring to your definition of what looks "good" and what people with "this profession" should do or not...

 

-k

[Michel Hafner]

I thought the film looked like a Playstation game on an LCD screen. The actors looked once again softer than the background and I do feel very sorry for Natalie Portman because of the way she looked in her very last scene. The close-up on her face was simply appalling. Whoever is responsible for these horrible videoish, plasticky skintones should seriously consider changing professions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Was that from a print or DLP? DLP looked fine to me.

[Brad Grimmett]

SPOILER

Well, she WAS dead...  maybe that's what embalming is like in the Star Wars universe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, I didn't mean that scene either. I was referring to the scene where she was giving birth as well.

[David Mullen ASC]

Just saw the 35mm print version... and can see what people were complaining about!

 

The 2K DLP version was much better-looking, richer colors, sharper, cleaner.

 

The 35mm print I saw (and maybe poor scope projection could be to blame too) was softer and pastel, with weak blacks. Perhaps there were just too many release prints made to be able to print from an original digital negative, and maybe using Vision Premier was also too expensive for so many prints, but I know HD-to-35mm could look better, especially 4:4:4 HD.

 

The occasionally odd fleshtones were the same on both the 2K DLP and 35mm version but the contrast in the faces was better in the 2K DLP version. There were also a number of scenes with quite excellent fleshtones but it's the bad ones that everyone remembers of course...

 

The chromakeying looked excellent on both versions (of course -- it's the same composite afterall). I noticed again this scene where Padme brushes her hair against a cityscape background, and every flyaway hair is keyed perfectly with no chattering. Big improvement over Episode 2 in this instance.

 

The only reason someone might prefer the 35mm print of "Sith" over the 2K DLP version is if they really didn't like that pristine computer video game look; the print has a more film-like roundedness, softness. The 2K DLP version has a more vivid clarity.

 

This is really a movie that only picks up any steam once Anakin goes "bad"...

[Filip Plesha]

Just seen the film in 35mm

 

The print was much worse than the one that I saw in the same theater for episode 2. I can't really comment on image quality of the film itself because it wouldn't be fair because I had a much better image experience due to better prints when I was watching episode 2.

 

Anyway, the first part of film left my eyes confused. In the battle I felt there were too many elements and not enough wideshots, which really left me wondering what the heck is going on on the big screen anyway. Too much confusing. I have a feeling this film is more optimized for DVD audience. When I go to cinema, I like seeing films that are made for big screen like odyssey 2001.

 

I feel the acting is better than in episode 2, and characters feel more real, and have more deph, and It was about time too.

 

CG still looked a bit sharper than video, and video still didn't look as sharp as film.

 

Of course, too much CG as usual. It wouldn't be a problem if it didn't look like CG (even in film prints) but it does (!!) I mean that CG grand moff tarkin in the end is so fake.

 

Yoda looks better, and his face movement is as real as a humans (bravo to that), the expressions are so subtle and natural, but his model still looks CG, and I don't think there is away around that unless using a puppet.

It's not a question of does he look like flesh and bone or not, it is a question does he look like a real material or not. I'd prefer real ruber to a fake looking rendering.

At least rubber and latex look like ruber and latex, CG doesn't look like any real material, it looks like drawn or painted.

 

Too many words and planets, and no atmosphere to any of them. In episode 4 you got the real feeling of what it is like on tatooine. You were standing right there in a real looking desert, or between the rocks and you could imagine it perfectly since 10 minutes were spend in subtle introduction of the environment. Same for hoth in episode 5.

 

In episode 3, you see a panoramic shot, and few more pictures and flybies and it cuts right to the action. No more subtlety, no more realism.

 

when the film cuts to old set of blocade runner from episode 4, the difference between film and video seems to be reduced, and it almost feels like you are watching those old film shots. Which is an example of how unfair it is to judge video without having a film reference side by side shot on the same set in same light.

 

But I haven't really seen any progress toward a more film look since episode 2.

I just hope the new generation of genesis, arri, dalsa is going to introduce a whole new look of video.

 

There is one scene that suprized me, and it's that scene where there is no sound and music is playing, and anakin and padme are watching each others buildings from distance in sunset. It is a place in film where your mind can rest and get really get deeper into the atmosphere instead of all this cutting and action. Great scene.

 

All in all, a nice film to watch, I think DVD experience will be much better for me (better contrast and colors)

[David Mullen ASC]

There is one scene that suprized me, and it's that scene where there is no sound and music is playing, and anakin and padme are watching each others buildings from distance in sunset. It is a place in film where your mind can rest and get really get deeper into the atmosphere instead of all this cutting and action. Great scene.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, that scene, with the subtle odd wailing music playing and the large stretches of silence -- and the laster scene intercutting Padme's death with Darth Vader's "birth" -- were the only two artistic directorial touches that were nice.

[Andy O'Neil]

Yes, the stretch of silence between Anakin and Padme was very satisfying. It's so nice to see others appreciated that.

[Jo Laurits Aksdal]

Yes, that scene, with the subtle odd wailing music playing and the large stretches of silence -- and the laster scene intercutting Padme's death with Darth Vader's "birth" -- were the only two artistic directorial touches that were nice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, 2hours and 20 minutes and only two good cuts...

 

I think the main difficulty with SW3 is that you get to see too much. There is nothing for your eyes to rest on and therefore no fuel for our imagination. It is still simply CG masturbation.

[Guest fstop]

Yes, that scene, with the subtle odd wailing music playing and the large stretches of silence... were the only two artistic directorial touches that were nice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Now to me this was where it became indistinguishable from any fruitless action movie scored by Hans Zimmer and his Media Ventures brigade with the generic "ethnic wail". Could have come from any Zimmer/MV Ridley Scott movie since Black Rain. Geoigre Lucas has John Williams and all he can come up with is a product of cutting to a Gladiator temp track. It didn't help that the visuals were straight out of Gladiator too. Generic contemporary and faceless.

 

More proof that the Star Wars prequels timidly follow what's hip as oppose to the original trilogy which created it's own highly unique universe (ironically for a franchise that borrows so liberally from Kurosawa and the old Flash Gordon serials).

Edited July 4, 2005 by fstop

[David Mullen ASC]

Everything's been done before, so I don't buy the notion that an eerie quiet moment with eerie wailing music can't be done anymore because "Gladiator" did it already ("Last Temptation of Christ" did it a decade or more before "Gladiator"...)

 

Either some cinematic device works emotionally or doesn't. It's only when it no longer produces any emotional effect in the viewer that the cliche becomes worthless.

 

Besides, Williams has used "ethnic sounds" in his music before. And if the "Star Wars" scores have done anything, it's that they keep expanding the types of music that they reference, from Wagnerian in the first movie to a more 19th century Russian symphonic sound in the second, but with elements of jazz (in the Cantina) and animalistic percussion (Tuskin Raiders). He added choir chanting Sanskrit in Episode One (Duel of the Fates).

[Guest fstop]

Nah, I'll have to disagree with you on this, David, I don't buy that it's mere coincidence that Lucas was using clearly Scott inspired visuals (glossy magic hour backlit cityscape with silouhetted human tableaus) to a generic MV ethnic wail that is sonically identical to anything from Gladiator to Black Hawk Down (Even Batman Begins). It's this synergy of imagery and sound I find undeniable. The Peter Gabriel Last Christ connection is just further proof that Zimmer's now ubiquitous, watered down new age/prog rock-lite is as original as everything else on his CV. plus the visuals in Temptation were very much their own, rugged and distinctive, unlike the Sith stuff that is clearly trying to cash in on a generic synergy.

 

As for John Williams expanding sounds, well, again I disagree. Williams hinted lightly at timeless ethnic sounds with the Cantina stuff, and the Jabba's Palace stuff from Return of The Jedi did push the source cue almost into a disco funk idium, without sounding like the Meco disco renditions of the Star Wars themes. These were also only source cues. However, after the whole full out big band/jazz /Men In Black music video number they used to replace the Jabba palace music (complete with vocals emulating the crooning of everyone from Louis Armstrong to Peggy Lee), I think the intelligence died on it's backside. The fact that the Sith wail is a non-diegetic piece and not merely a source cue is a turning point, when as you mentioned before, the basis for this franchise had traditionally been something in the classical, Korngold vein (which encompasses the chorus and the Russian symphonic sound you speak of, as these were the roots of Golden Age scoring tactics).

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, if Lucas was trying to be Ridley Scott, he failed miserably... Scott would never shoot something so visually sterile and plastic-looking at the universe shown in the past three "Star Wars" prequels.

 

Funny thing is that Scott was obviously influenced by Lucas' beat-up, "lived-in" universe created in the original "Star Wars" when he did "Alien" -- but Lucas seems to have lost the touch for creating fantastic worlds that feel, well, real. To some degree, this was due to the story development, creating a back story set in a past universe much more polished, elegent, and ornate than the one in Episodes 4-6, but even so, he could have made that world feel a little more solid and lived-in -- if he only had Scott's art direction sensibilities.

 

I just object to the term "cash in" because it implies empty, pointless, robotic copying rather than an honest influence, and you just don't know one way or the other. Lucas may have simply liked that quiet moment in editing it and Williams may have just been inspired to add an eerie ethnic wailing without consciously thinking "I'm going to cash in on the success of 'Gladiator'".

[Filip Plesha]

I think he still tried to give some dirt to all the CG, but it just doesn't look drity.

 

The difference between old trilogy dirt and prequel trilogy dirt is like a difference between a toy that was rolled in mud, and a toy that has painted on dirt.

[David Mullen ASC]

I just remembered that the atmospheric "ethnic wail" music goes back even farther than "Last Temptation of Christ" to Scott's own "Blade Runner"... diegetic in some scenes but not in others. I can't think of any earlier example of this in movies, other than purely motivated (Goldsmith used a lot of Arabic sounds in the score for "The Wind and the Lion" but not any vocal work that I can recall.)

 

I guess I'm not someone who tends to criticize a filmmaker for incorporating someone else's ideas since I don't think of myself as an original thinker, but more of an assimulator (or regurgitator...). And I tend to feel that the only innovations that really mean anything are ones that result from simply trying to solve some particular narrative or production problem, i.e. not out of some conscious attempt at originality. So if you want to create a creepy mood and you find an ethnic female voice wailing to be creepy, then I don't see a problem with using that as opposed to someother creepy musical sound (a theremin, for example.)

 

Obviously enough us liked it to point it out as a positive moment in "Revenge of the Sith" so you can't really say that it's a technique that can no longer be used because it no longer works. Anyway, I don't think you can say that the overall problem with the direction of the movie was that it was too contemporary in style.

[Guest fstop]

No, I'd just say the prequels are flat out visionless, from Attack of the Clones and it's Italian American cartoon stereotype "Reboot" Diner, Fifth Element via Blade Runner techno city and NYPD Blues crash zoom in the finale to the Hans Zimmer ethnic wail that took me right out of the Sith and the "Ed Wood pretending to be James Whale" birth of Vader (I'm suprised Lucas didn't have McDiarmid scream "He's ALIIIIVE!!"). Additionally, why does everyone now backflip in Star Wars movies- hmm, no correlation between that and the release of The Matrix and Crouching Dragon, eh? When Christopher Lee and Yoda (along with everybody else) start backflipping for absolutely no plot motivated reason in all of their scenes "wire-fu" style, something stinks.

 

You are spot on about Vangelis' Blade Runner too, I was thinking the same thing, plus Parker's Midnight Express features similar samples in it's Istanbul music. The Sith wail however comes straight from the Zimmer/Lisa Gerrard approach (it's a clean, female European voice), whereas the Blade Runner one was a simulated Holyman chanting.