For those living in New Mexico

[Alessandro Machi]

I missed the part about there being three interns.

 

That changes everything.

 

If there are three interns, the three interns can do a third of a day each. Then it's not as much of a financial burden on the interns to have to be on set all day, everyday, while their personal monthly bills accrue.

 

It's not fair to assume an intern can put in full days, day after day, without even a minimal stipend, but if they don't have to put in a full day, that's a different story.

[David Mullen ASC]

I never said there were three interns.

 

Look, it's an unpaid position -- if they want to only show up for three hours a day or three days a week, or only be there for two weeks total, whatever is convenient, that's up to them.

 

IT'S NOT A JOB. THERE ARE NO DUTIES, NO REQUIREMENTS, NO SET NUMBER OF HOURS, ETC. AND NO PAY.

 

It's up to them to decide what they want to get out of it. They just want to sketch some lighting set-ups or chat with me at lunch or watch dailies with me, they can do that. If they want to help push a cart or lift a case now and then, that's up to the camera department person in charge of that stuff. All the intern really has to do is watch if they want to. Maybe help me take some notes on set.

 

Look, I don't even know yet if I have permission to have an intern on set -- this was my idea, not production's.

 

I can't believe all this debate just for asking if someone wanted to be my intern on this movie. I'm really starting to regret even bringing it up.

[Mark Allen]

I can't believe all this debate just for asking if someone wanted to be my intern on this movie.  I'm really starting to regret even bringing it up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well - a few of us here think it was a really nice thing to offer and understand it was being done from a generous place. I can totally understand your sentiment here.

[Landon D. Parks]

I was using $10,000,000 and 3 interns as an example. I do not know how many interns or what the budget of the film will be.

[Alessandro Machi]

I never said there were three interns.

 

Look, it's an unpaid position -- if they want to only show up for three hours a day or three days a week, or only be there for two weeks total, whatever is convenient, that's up to them. 

 

IT'S NOT A JOB. THERE ARE NO DUTIES, NO REQUIREMENTS, NO SET NUMBER OF HOURS, ETC. AND NO PAY.

 

I can't believe all this debate just for asking if someone wanted to be my intern on this movie.  I'm really starting to regret even bringing it up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think most if not all of the responses have been very supportive and helpful David.

 

Paid production people are used to working 8-14 hours a day. I'm suggesting that an unpaid intern have a shorter daily routine, like four hours a day, and if they want to stay more, they can.

[Guest]

"I can't believe all this debate just for asking if someone wanted to be my intern on this movie. I'm really starting to regret even bringing it up."

 

I feel your pain David, I can't tell you how many times I've tried to help some one and ended up really regretting it.

 

R,

[Wendell_Greene]

II can't believe all this debate just for asking if someone wanted to be my intern on this movie.  I'm really starting to regret even bringing it up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I can't believe it either David, but I guess you can file this under the category of "no good deed goes unpunished."

 

As someone who got their first break working as an unpaid camera intern under a professional cinematographer, I applaud you. And I hope you won't let the detractors and other begrudgers keep you from giving someone an opportunity to work with and learn from you, on this project and on others to come. You have done nothing but give of yourself, and you'd be the last person I would ever consider to be out simply to exploit someone, nor are you a pawn of penny pinching producers.

 

I also want to add that due to that experience as a camera intern and because I kept my mouth shut, listened and watched, and worked extremely hard, I was able to work on other music video shoots for that cinematographer and several others, as a paid camera assistant. Even more importantly, I was able to build relationships with the cinematographers I worked for and meet other people in the industry, who have helped my career progress.

 

This is why, I will always make sure that on any project that I'm directing and/or shooting that someone else will get the same opportunity in the camera department as I was given. I could care less what anyone thinks of my motives.

[Michael Most]

If I had the choice of going to the New York film acadamy and PAYING them $10,000 + my own board, food, gas, ect or interning on a set with Mr. Mullen, which is gonna be much cheaper than paying $20,000 total for a film school education, and still not learning as much as you could actually BEING there, instead of hearing about being there in a classroom.

 

I'd take the internship. Not only is it cheaper, but IMHO its a better education.

 

An internship is NOT an education. It should be supplemental to a basic education. An internship, in terms of its value to the intern, is an opportunity to observe. It is not a classroom, and if you think it's a situation in which you can ask all the questions you want, you're sadly mistaken. A film set is a place of work, a rather busy one in most cases, and people don't really have the time to educate you, nor is it their responsibility to do so. Education is about a lot more than the chemistry of film emulsions and the understanding of lenses, exposure, framing, and lighting. It's about life, and it's about art, and literature, and developing a deep understanding of what the great masters of the various visual and literary media have done before you. It's about understanding humans and their emotions, and it's about developing discipline in your personal and working life. Basically, it's about growing up. You're not going to get any of that hanging around on a film set, any more than you would get any of that hanging around in an auto factory. If you were to use anyone here as an example, David is a very good one. Yes, he's a fine technician, with a great understanding of the tools. But far more importantly, if you actually read and listen to what he is saying, he is a true student of the arts, with far ranging knowledge and familiarity with great works of the past. His knowledge of film history is deep, but his knowledge of art and literature is just as deep. What gives him vision, besides his own talent, is the inspiration he derives from this knowledge, and what makes him a true artist is his ability to draw from this inspiration and create visions of his own that incorporate both his own creativity and elements drawn from great work of the past.

 

The bottom line is that you seem to think this is an "either/or" comparison. It is not. If you want to be a craftsperson, that's one thing. If you want to be an educated adult who can use both knowledge of what has come before and your own personal life experience to create and enhance your art, that's another. Don't confuse one as being a "shortcut" to the other.

 

[quote[

I do however think that they should be offered free meals on the set while they are interning.

 

 

Both craft service and catering (if the production is on location) are always available to everyone on the set.

[Matt Irwin]

I can't believe all this debate just for asking if someone wanted to be my intern on this movie.  I'm really starting to regret even bringing it up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Seriously guys. David is presenting you with a rare opportunity to learn from a very talented cinematographer in the field. What is there to debate?

It's one thing to be in a cinematography class at film school, where the instructor might give a demo and critique you work; however being able to watch someone work and absorb everything they do is valuable in a whole different way. Of course "that's just, like, my opinion, man".

[Landon D. Parks]

Mike, I see your point in your post. However, no class-room is a substiture for WATCHING a master like David in action. Sure, in a class-room you can ask all kinds of questions (Until the teacher gets tired of you, and ignors your hand in the air), but just hearing about how a film set works is not good enough education in my opinion, nor is going out and shooting a silent B&W 16mm film with 3 others students, rotataing possitions.

 

I think that a great part of film-education should be spent on how to work on the set, what to expect on the set, how to communicate with actors / directors / ect.

 

If you have a vision for films, it's gonna be there naturally, and You don't need a school to pound a "Vision" into your head. I think thats why all the films today are so drabe, because film school pound a single vision into everyones head, so that it dont matter if you hire joe down the road or jim up the road, since they both have the same vision.

 

Films where not so drabe back in the 1930-1970's, but when "Film Schools" started poping up in our world, they where like an assemly line producing directors / DP's that where all taught the same way.

 

My way of seeing may be flawed badly, but its still my way of viewing it. I don't have any intention of going to film school, because I dont wanna be just "Another Graduate Director", I feel that I have a TRUE vision for what certain films should look like, and THAT vision is what should come out in your work, not your teachers.

 

As to the statement that learning film history, great art ect... Thats correct, but you know what, I dont need a film school to go and rent some old films and watch them, If I want good art I'll go to the Museum (free). PS) I dont know about school like NYU or CALARTS, but schools like NYFU to my knowlege anyway, don't have history in there teachings, its mostly technical knowlege, which In my opinion is what a film school should teach, not vision.

 

Just my $0.02, you can pound me about it if you want about how I'm seeing it all wronge, but it's just the way I have always viewed it, and I don't plan to change that anytime soon.

 

Have a nice day

 

PS) Was Hitchcock a film school graduate? I think not.

Edited July 23, 2005 by Landon D. Parks

[J. Lamar King IMPOSTOR]

This would be a good apportunity for anyone really. Student or more experienced DP. Geez, I would come out to watch for a few days myself if I lived closer especially if you were doing any kind of big night extriors.

Edited July 23, 2005 by J. Lamar King

[Michael Most]

Mike, I see your point in your post.

 

I'm not sure that you do, as evidenced by the rest of your post:

 

If you have a vision for films, it's gonna be there naturally, and You don't need a school to pound a "Vision" into your head. I think thats why all the films today are so drabe, because film school pound a single vision into everyones head, so that it dont matter if you hire joe down the road or jim up the road, since they both have the same vision.

 

Films where not so drabe back in the 1930-1970's, but when "Film Schools" started poping up in our world, they where like an assemly line producing directors / DP's that where all taught the same way.

 

For someone who has never actually had any experience with any college or film school, you seem to have a pretty strong opinion. I think the real problem I have with your various posts on this subject is that you seem to be constantly in search of the "magic shortcut," the "secret" that will allow you to bypass the normal steps of general education, life experience, and, in general, the maturing process. You want very badly to believe that all talent and knowledge is either innate or able to be self taught. What people like David and I have been trying to tell you, each in our own way, is that this is not the case.

As for film schools producing assembly line directors, obviously you see similarities in the sensibilities of such diverse film school graduates as Martin Scorcese, Michael Bay, John Singleton, and Spike Lee that the rest of us do not. Your directing sensibilities are based on your own point of view, talent, and life experience, not what you are taught in a directing class.

 

My way of seeing may be flawed badly, but its still my way of viewing it. I don't have any intention of going to film school, because I dont wanna be just "Another Graduate Director", I feel that I have a TRUE vision for what certain films should look like, and THAT vision is what should come out in your work, not your teachers.

 

No comment.

 

As to the statement that learning film history, great art ect... Thats correct, but you know what, I dont need a film school to go and rent some old films and watch them, If I want good art I'll go to the Museum (free). PS) I dont know about school like NYU or CALARTS, but schools like NYFU to my knowlege anyway, don't have history in there teachings, its mostly technical knowlege, which In my opinion is what a film school should teach, not vision.

 

And I'm sure you'll be able to analyze the great artistic and literary works just as insightfully as the professors who spend their lives studying them, and their classroom time imparting at least a percentage of that insight to the students they teach. Landon, you are clearly much too young and inexperienced in the things you talk about at this point to be making these kinds of statements to adults on this forum who have some persepective on the subject that you don't.

 

Just my $0.02, you can pound me about it if you want about how I'm seeing it all wronge, but it's just the way I have always viewed it, and I don't plan to change that anytime soon.

 

I'm not trying to "pound" you and never have. I'm trying to open your eyes. But you can't open the eyes of someone who's intent on keeping them shut.

[Landon D. Parks]

Each person has there opinion, and that fine. I respect your opinion, and I'm gonna drop the subject at that. No since In bickering back and forth on something thats not gonna change anything.

 

I do respect you Mike, it's just some time we dont see eye to eye.

[Matt Pacini]

Well I certainly apologize if I started some debate here, it wasn't my intention.

I applaud what you're doing as a favor David, and I also think it's a terrific idea for someone to intern.

Hell, I'd do it myself if I could (like I said earlier).

I'm not criticizing anyone who offers an intern position, and I'm not criticizing anyone who wants to intern.

 

I was merely pointing out what I see as the philosophical hypocrisy of the unions, that's all.

I get in conversations with turbo-pro union folks occasionally, who also are big on raising the minimum wage laws, so nobody works for less than a "living wage" (ignoring all the teenagers etc., who are not primary bread-winners, but that's another conversation!).

 

Some of these people are absolutely rabid about these issues, completely unbending and unwilling to accept that there are exceptions, saying that everyone should make "breadwinner money", period.

I'd have to include the leadership of the unions in this camp, wouldn't you?

 

So I find it strange that they will let anyone on-set to do anything even remotely "crew-like" and not insist that they get paid.

That would line up with their philosophy.

I'm not saying it would be a reasonable reaction for them to insist that, just as I don't think the unions are reasonably in many things they do, like shutting down non-union shoots that can't afford to go union, or insisting that someone prove they have worked X many of hours on union shoots to qualify for membership which is impossible because union productions aren't allowed to hire non-union workers!!!

 

My "jabs" were at union leadership, not David, not the interns.

I'm pointing out the fallacy of this "everyone should be paid great money, and us unions are here to make sure that happens", when I really think "part" of the unions agenda is, "big wages mean big union dues".

 

OK, I give up, I guess I'm the only one who is willing or able to understand what I'm saying.

Sorry if I pissed anyone off...

 

MP

 

 

(P.S. Not all union positions are "skilled professionals", as you will see if you walk into any grocery store: first day bag boys right out of high school are all union members.)

[David Mullen ASC]

I'm not saying it would be a reasonable reaction for them to insist that, just as I don't think the unions are reasonably in many things they do, like shutting down non-union shoots that can't afford to go union, or insisting that someone prove they have worked X many of hours on union shoots to qualify for membership which is impossible because union productions aren't allowed to hire non-union workers!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The requirement to join the camera union requires "x" days of experience -- there's no qualifier that it must be union experience!

 

I can't speak for other unions which may have less fair or logical practices for joining, but I'm sure some need to be reformed in this area.

 

Not every job on a "union" shoot is a union job. SAG covers actors, DGA the directors and AD staff, IATSE covers many technicians, the Teamsters cover drivers, but an office worker might not be in any particular union.

 

I really don't get where your griping is leading. So you're upset that the unions allow upaid internships? Or are you upset that the union is in favor of raising the minimum wage? So you're against raising the minimum wage? You're against internships? I don't really get what exactly you want the union to do here. You honestly want to get internships unionized? Because that's what it sound like you want. Are you sure if the union tried to do that, you wouldn't complain about that too?

 

"Gee, I wanted to be an intern on this movie, but now I have to join a union to do it!"

 

It sounds like you are complaining for the sake of complaining, without coming up with some sort of reasonable action for the union to follow in regards to internships. Do you want internships to be unionized and paid? Do you now want unions to insist that producers MUST hire union interns and pay them? Is that what you are suggesting? I would think you'd be against unions taking even more control over the workforce.

 

What exactly do you think the union's position on internships should be? Unionized and paid? Or leave them out of the union?

 

Remember that unions don't just come up with rules that they force down producers' throats. There is a contract that is negotiated between them. So what would you have the union do at the next contract negotiation? Insist that producers hire unionized interns and pay them? What do you think the producers response would be to that proposal? "Sounds like a great idea!"??? Do you honestly think that's going to happen? Do you honestly think the intern issue is more important than, let's say, preserving the payments made into the pension plan? Preserving the level of health care for members? If you were running IATSE, what politically makes more sense for the union to concentrate on in this day and age when negotiating with producers?

[Robert Edge]

David,

 

I'm neither a kid nor a student, but I can take the time from my regular job and I'd be happy to fly to New Mexico, arrange my own accomodation, pay my own way and work full days for the duration in whatever capacity I can be useful.

 

If you are looking for a student, cool. If it doesn't matter, and you get permission to do this, let me know, because I'll do it at the drop of a hat.

[Alessandro Machi]

David,

 

I'm neither a kid nor a student, but I can take the time from my regular job and I'd be happy to fly to New Mexico, arrange my own accomodation, pay my own way and work full days for the duration in whatever capacity I can be useful.

 

If you are looking for a student, cool.  If it doesn't matter, and you get permission to do this, let me know, because I'll do it at the drop of a hat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

There's more than one kind of intern type out there.

 

There are those who can afford to do it for no pay, and be there full time, and there are those who would love to do it full time but could not not afford to do a full day, everyday, without pay.

 

That was why I suggested that it be a 4 hour a day internship, whomever is selected could choose to stay longer if they were able to.

[Matt Pacini]

Good lord, I don't know how I could have been more clear that I'm not against people having interns, that I'm not against interns, etc.

 

I quite obviously didn't say I WANTED THE UNIONS TO DO ANYTHING to interns.

There's a serious lack of logic going on here.

 

I don't want the unions to do anything about interns.

I was simply pointing out how being in favor of the highest possible wages, under the guise of "everyone needs to make a living wage" is philosophically opposite of "hey, let's let them get some free labor in here".

If interns aren't doing any "actual work" whatsoever, there would be no reason to have them. (I'm talking about most situations, not necessarily yours, David).

I've known lots of people who were working their asses off as interns (mostly in production office capacity) and making no money.

There are lots of intern positions at all the major studio websites. Thes people are not standing around observing, they're working.

 

And by the way, interns in the film industry are such a great opportunity, precisely because it's so damn hard for non-union people to get anywhere near a professional film set.

 

Perhaps everything I'm saying is lost on anyone who's a union member, or on someone who hasn't been frustrated by having been shut out of a job by the union rules.

What I want the unions to do, is lighten up and stop being gatekeepers.

They have created this huge non-union "beast" that they so despise, as well as the "runaway production" (as it's always called) to Canada and other countries.

There's a point where you're KEEPING PEOPLE FROM WORKING, and that's what I have a problem with the unions over.

 

MP

Edited July 25, 2005 by Matt Pacini

[David Mullen ASC]

Look, I just asked if anyone wanted to be my intern in New Mexico. That's ALL.

 

YOU'RE the one who wanted to turn this into a political discussion, take a swipe at unions, minimum wage, Hollywood studios, etc. -- all your standard pet peeves. You can't help yourself! And look what happens everytime we bring this stuff up... we all start arguing, taking sides, accusing each other of not understanding what the other was saying, and it keeps escalating.

 

You want to accuse the unions of hypocrisy for allowing unpaid internships on a set, yet you also don't want the unions to do anything about it either! You just want the opportunity to complain about them again and are using my post as an excuse.

[Guest razerfish]

Any chance you'll be doing some filming in Arizona? I'll take you up on your offer.

 

Not sure if you're set on New Mexico, but Arizona just passed their laws designed to attract production back to the state that is very favorable to producers.

 

Anyway, I'll do free work for a DP if I can learn some things. I've volunteered to PA for free on any feature films or national commercials that come into town just for the chance to watch and learn some techniques or pick the brain of a DP or director.

[Laurence Avenet]

Look, I just asked if anyone wanted to be my intern in New Mexico. That's ALL.

 

YOU'RE the one who wanted to turn this into a political discussion, take a swipe at unions, minimum wage, Hollywood studios, etc. -- all your standard pet peeves.  You can't help yourself!  And look what happens everytime we bring this stuff up... we all start arguing, taking sides, accusing each other of not understanding what the other was saying, and it keeps escalating.

 

You want to accuse the unions of hypocrisy for allowing unpaid internships on a set, yet you also don't want the unions to do anything about it either! You just want the opportunity to complain about them again and are using my post as an excuse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hi David,

 

I just wanted to see if you've found an intern yet. Are you looking for someone for the length of the project or would you consider an intern for a short period of time. Let me know.

 

Thanks,

Laurence Avenet-Bradley

[Manu Anand]

Namaste David

 

If you'd made that offer anywhere close to Bombay you would have a million interns in waiting by now including me.

:) Your inbox would be full your phone would not stop ringing.

I think its great what your doing and maybe the "intern paid vs non paid" debate should be moved to a new thread if people wanna talk about it.

I think i do see what Matt's getting atl ....but im not going to continue the debate in here.

 

Manu Anand

New Delhi(currently in Bombay)

[Alessandro Machi]

Namaste David

 

If you'd made that offer anywhere close to Bombay you would have a million interns in waiting by now including me.

:)  Your inbox would be full your phone would not stop ringing.

I think its great what your doing and maybe the "intern paid vs non paid" debate should be moved to a new thread if people wanna talk about it.

I think i do see what Matt's getting atl ....but im not going to continue the debate in here.

 

Manu Anand

New Delhi(currently in Bombay)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Sometimes concepts don't have to be debated. David seems very flexible in what he would allow the intern to do and what hours they could participate. That is a very generous position to take because it levels the playing field between those who can financially afford to be there all the time, every day, versus those who would have to split their day between a paying job and the internship.

 

I'm suggesting a 4 four a day minimum requirement because it would allow the impoverished an equal shot at experiencing an intership versus those with more stable financing. If the selected intern can put in more than four hours a day, cool, if not, that is fine also.

[Matt Pacini]

David, it certainly wasn't my intention for my off-handed little remark to "escalate" into this big thing, but I think you were partly responsible for that:

 

I CLEARLY stated in my original post that I wasn't criticizing you for hiring interns, yet you (admittedly) didn't read my entire post, then went on to rail against me in your response for something I didn't do.

After that, it was post after post saying I was "attacking David for hiring an intern" which is clearly NOT what I did, and all my subsequent posts were trying to clarify that, to no avail.

Go back and read this threat with an open mind if you can, and you'll see how absurd this is; me saying one thing, the next post assuming I'm saying something else, me clarifying that that's NOT what I said, the next post insisting it is, blah blah.

 

In other words, I wasn't starting an argument or criticizing you.

It was your ASSUMPTION that I was, and the subsequent flood of people defending you against an accusation THAT I DIDN'T MAKE, that caused it to be an argument.

 

MP

Edited July 26, 2005 by Matt Pacini

[Tim Tyler]

Matt,

 

> yet you (admittedly) didn't read my entire post, then went

> on to rail against me in your response for something I didn't do.

 

David commented (railed?) on the first half of you original post, and then three hours later, after going back and reading your entire first post, said "Before Matt says anything, I know he wasn't attacking me..."

 

> After that, it was post after post saying I was "attacking

> David for hiring an intern"

 

There's not one post with that quote in it. There are posts discussing interns, unions, and commending david for offering the potential internship.

 

> and the subsequent flood of people defending you

> against an accusation THAT I DIDN'T MAKE, that caused

> it to be an argument.

 

Look - As I see it, David jumped the gun in his reply to your initial post, admitted that, and has moved on. You introduced the 'union' element into this discussion by questioning the unions' actions and priorities. There's a whole category in the cinematography.com forum called 'Business Practices / Unions'. If you have a comment about unions, post it there, not in a thread where a DP is offering an intern position.

 

As far as David's internship offering goes, he can be contacted by email at http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/in...l&CODE=00&MID=3 if anyone is interested.