Bolex non reflex h16 Repair

[Hugo Uribe]

Hello I’m new here! 
 

Have some questions on a Bolex non reflex h16 camera i recently purchased. 

Camera had been running great and seemed to be in great clean conditions. Bought only the body in hopes of slowly building it up to one day filming with it. But recently it fell from a 3 foot shelf onto the floor. Everything seems to be intact and the motor still seems to be running after turning the arm. However, i feel like its a bit slower now. Even though after turning the arm, it runs all 30sec on 24fps towards the end it seems to slow down. I’m pretty sure the camera should be at a constant speed when on 24fps and 60fps. That’s why i feel like the camera is probably in need of repair and I’m not crazy lol. So my question is this issue probably due to internal damage? Is it even damaged ? And also does anyone have any good recommendations for a repair shop for these old cameras. I have contacted a few places and they’ve given me quotes. 
At the moment I’m considering the fact in saving up to getting repaired, I’m not giving up on this little guy so easily. But do ya’ll think its even worth it or should i look into getting a newer one. 

Any advise is appreciated thank you! 

[Dom Jaeger]

Most Bolexes actually slow down a little towards the end of the spring wind. Generally, losing a few fps in the last 10 seconds is normal.

If they're worn, or need lubrication, or the spring is tired, they will slow down more, to the point where sometimes they slow to a stop. If it just needs lubrication a camera can be brought back, but sometimes they're too worn or tired. In those cases you can try to limit your shots to shorter durations, or use an electric motor. 

I find Bolexes tend to be pretty sturdy cameras internally, a drop usually damages something on the exterior rather than the clockwork inside, but I guess a large enough drop might deform something. But I suspect you just didn't notice the slowing down before. 

Old non-reflex models should be pretty cheap, they are ubiquitous and shouldn't cost more than a couple of hundred dollars really. So if you think yours is damaged it probably makes more sense to buy another one. But definitely have any camera this old serviced before you use it. Very old cameras (serial numbers under 76471) will have double perf sprockets, which limits you to hard-to-source double perf film unless you have the sprocket rollers modified or replaced.

I would recommend trying to buy a camera with lenses included, people selling C mount lenses individually seem to have a vastly inflated sense of what they're worth. If using eBay, wait for an auction rather than "buy it now". Check the sold listings for more realistic prices, what people are actually paying for things.

My personal recommendation for Bolex service in your part of the world is Jean-Louis Seguin at bolextech@gmail.com 

But I believe places like ProCam, Visual Products and Du-All would also do a good job. 

 

[Doug Palmer]

5 hours ago, Dom Jaeger said:

Most Bolexes actually slow down a little towards the end of the spring wind. Generally, losing a few fps in the last 10 seconds is normal.

If they're worn, or need lubrication, or the spring is tired, they will slow down more, to the point where sometimes they slow to a stop. If it just needs lubrication a camera can be brought back, but sometimes they're too worn or tired. In those cases you can try to limit your shots to shorter durations, or use an electric motor. 

I find Bolexes tend to be pretty sturdy cameras internally, a drop usually damages something on the exterior rather than the clockwork inside, but I guess a large enough drop might deform something. But I suspect you just didn't notice the slowing down before. 

Old non-reflex models should be pretty cheap, they are ubiquitous and shouldn't cost more than a couple of hundred dollars really. So if you think yours is damaged it probably makes more sense to buy another one. But definitely have any camera this old serviced before you use it. Very old cameras (serial numbers under 76471) will have double perf sprockets, which limits you to hard-to-source double perf film unless you have the sprocket rollers modified or replaced.

I would recommend trying to buy a camera with lenses included, people selling C mount lenses individually seem to have a vastly inflated sense of what they're worth. If using eBay, wait for an auction rather than "buy it now". Check the sold listings for more realistic prices, what people are actually paying for things.

My personal recommendation for Bolex service in your part of the world is Jean-Louis Seguin at bolextech@gmail.com 

But I believe places like ProCam, Visual Products and Du-All would also do a good job. 

 

 

A few minutes ago I used an old H16RX round base camera for the first time in two years, and I was rather shocked how it seemed to lose speed after only about 18 seconds or less, at 24fps. So frequent winding up necessary.  This one hasn't fallen ? so maybe it's just lack of use and the oil a bit thick ?  And it's quite cold here now, maybe a factor.  As always with these things, it's whether it's worth getting it serviced or not, when OK otherwise.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Doug Palmer
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[Simon Wyss]

Having just ended a complete overhaul of a 1960 P.-B. H-16 Reflex-2 I’d like to state that it’s like night and day compared to before. It takes a little more than some oil for a consistent 27 seconds run (the intended 650 frames), the main spring’s pretension may have to be increased after 60 years or so, but above all the entire gear train should be freed from old grease and correctly lubricated. The governor wants to run lubed in the bearings, drum and brake pads clean. In this case the finder was rather dirty, it now is bright and neat again. In one respect I can return a camera in better shape than it was when sold the first time, it’s a mechanical detail I have learnt to improve. Pailard was a bit careless in two or three places. The frame counter friction for instance can be abolished and replaced by a coupling clip. I find the braking action of that friction unnecessary. On the other hand the spool spindles must have enough pull, only the appropriate treatment of the wire coils will bring that.

If a very steady run on a spiral spring is wanted, nothing beats a Bell & Howell Filmo 70 with high-speed governor.

[Doug Palmer]

1 hour ago, Simon Wyss said:

Having just ended a complete overhaul of a 1960 P.-B. H-16 Reflex-2 I’d like to state that it’s like night and day compared to before. It takes a little more than some oil for a consistent 27 seconds run (the intended 650 frames), the main spring’s pretension may have to be increased after 60 years or so, but above all the entire gear train should be freed from old grease and correctly lubricated. The governor wants to run lubed in the bearings, drum and brake pads clean. In this case the finder was rather dirty, it now is bright and neat again. In one respect I can return a camera in better shape than it was when sold the first time, it’s a mechanical detail I have learnt to improve. Pailard was a bit careless in two or three places. The frame counter friction for instance can be abolished and replaced by a coupling clip. I find the braking action of that friction unnecessary. On the other hand the spool spindles must have enough pull, only the appropriate treatment of the wire coils will bring that.

If a very steady run on a spiral spring is wanted, nothing beats a Bell & Howell Filmo 70 with high-speed governor.

I'm sure you're right Simon, and it's great we have people like you here keen to get these old beasts working as in younger days.  Though as Dom points out, it's sometimes possible simply to find another body with better lubrication and so on.  On the other hand,  sometimes we are attached for different reasons to the one we have and enjoy.  In my case, it was my first attempt at a mod for ultra-16 (I can hear you gulping Simon !) and I've been happy sofar with the results. So I think I'll see if it gets better or worse, then decide what to do with it.  There's always as Dom says, option for an electric motor.  Let us know how you get on with yours, Hugo.

Interesting Simon that bit about the frame counter friction.  And Bell & Howell's.  Even the 240 model has far better running duration than the Bolex,  a minus point sadly after all the good points.

 

[Dom Jaeger]

I just finished overhauling what I estimate to be about my 45th Bolex, a Rex4. This one was slowing down after about 15 seconds at 24fps. The movement was relatively free (you can feel the resistance with the motor disconnected and manually turning it over) so I wasn’t sure how much a relube might help, but it now runs pretty constantly until about 25 seconds in.

I found a few adjustment issues from a previous service that were adding drag - one sprocket guide was set too close so it was pressing on the film, and a spacer washer that was supposed to be controlling axial play on a sprocket spindle had been accidentally misplaced and was on top of one of the posts that connects the two mechanism plates, warping the top plate. The shutter was slightly bent and scraping a little as well. I also found the reverse claw completely worn down, as if the tip had been filed down. While not an issue in normal forward running, whenever the film would have been rewound that reverse claw would have been scratching into the gate and probably damaging the film perfs. The motor limit gear had also been set incorrectly, so that the spring was reaching its natural wind-up limit before the mechanical stop was reached, a broken spring waiting to happen. But externally, the camera seemed in perfect condition, apart from the slowing down.

These are the sorts of things that a good overhaul can identify, along with the usual cleaning and lubricating of the mechanism, cleaning and aligning of the viewfinder, checking of the claw alignment and so on. It’s why I think any Bolex should be overhauled after a purchase, because there are always little issues that may end up causing big problems.