Jim Feldspar

Thanks Luke and Frank. Yes, I am interested in seeing how a non-crystal sync (or if there is technically no such thing, then a non film-industry generator, one not designated for frequency consistent enough to stay within fluctuations that won't cause flicker) would perform. Some people have reported that they've used Honda generators successfully with HMIs, although not the type designed for controlled frequency with limited deviation. I wonder if they have been able to do that because they'll perform that way reliably or if they're reliable most of the time and so far these folks have made out okay. Before I do any testing or use any test equipment, I plan on running everything by a local licensed electrician.

Yes, we have a solid short script, good cast, locked locations, good props, hair and make-up, a great art department in the form of two Jack (and Jill) of all trades who are in art school, and a solid crew, all of whom have proven to be true to their word in the past when they've committed. We've set shoot dates: a Friday night and the ensuing weekend and the story is fairly serious (not without humor but substantial.) Based on this, we've been promised at least a BL-16 with 12-120 Angenieux and we're glad to have it (and we may be upgraded if something else turns out not to be booked for rental by that Friday.) We went back with our production plans, script, some tests we did on Mini-DV and apparently looked like we have our act together enough to be set up with a camera, camera support, another tech from the rental house who offered to A.C.. By hook or by crook, we're going to shoot! Thanks, Charles. Our pitch changed what we hadn't realized had seemed to the boss be a casual request (although we were quite serious) into our showing that we're organized and extremely dedicated and that seemed to make a big difference. We actually shot our storyboards with Mini-DV to get a clearer idea of how things might work. (Good point from Mr. Mullen in another post: The storyboard is always in focus but the shot might not be, although with Mini-DV, mostly everything is in focus but still good to keep in mind.) Thank you everybody for your technical insight and your ferocious encoragement!

I'm definitely not going bigger than the 5600w. Thanks for offering to $ chip in but now Frank is really going to charge us!

Scott, are you a producer? You're absolutely right. However, I did want to see how strongly people felt about the chance of improved image quality at similar costs (film would cost the same and if we could get the Super 16 camera...) Other than that bit of defensiveness, in my neighborhood, you hear a lot of the older people utilizing that old Irish saying, "Either S..t or get off the pot." In "Skywalking", Dale Pollock's biography of George Lucas, there's a story in which George Lucas tells of these guys he would know who worked at production houses and would complain that they wanted to make a movie and he couldn't figure them out because they had the use of all the camera and grip equipment they needed (at least for most wekends and some slow weeks that they could book) and a hundred thousand feet of older film in full rolls and short ends. You're so right. Michael Buble has a much superior singing voice than Bob Dylan but to whom would most of us rather listen? Buble is singing Sinatra songs now, and technically, Buble is the superior singer, but I'd rather listen to a Sinatra song recorded on a cassete in a metal shop than a Buble C.D.. (Sorry, Mr. Buble.)

You're right. Can't argue with that! Thanks.

[qThe tires are a GoodYear smooth tire with an innertube. They are 12 inches in diameter and just over three inches wide. The marks on one of the tires says "3.4/ 3-007." and the Rims are split (two sides held together with bolts). Nathan, This may be way off paranoid but I had a job changing (regular car tires) and I heard a lot about the dangers of breaking down split-rim truck tires. It's actually done with the tire in a sort of cage that you can reach into because sometimes they split apart and go flying and they have split people apart. Probably not the same thing, but when I heard "split-rim" I wanted to say at least check it out. Feel free to say that you have a crazy friend who made you ask. That's a cool looking dolly. Can you say how much you paid for it?

Indeed. That guy's job was to stand guard at the generator and monitor it (and that was an expensive blimped generator from a film rental house and probably as reliable as any one out there.) However, if I can find a generator that looks reliable, I may go with it and see if I can minimize my use of HMIs and see how that goes, while increasing what I can do by other means. This should be less risky than relying on the HMIs for the entire shoot, For example if I use 1200w PARS to light large night ext. distant backrounds in master shots and use tungsten on the foreground talent, that might work okay and even be able to be used if there is some flicker on that abandonded warehouse in the background. Thanks for all your responses! Am I going to get a bill?

Good point! For my other needs a less expensive meter might be okay (the difference between a reading of 115 volts on one and an accurate 112 on a more accurate more expensive meter is a bigger percentage but probably not as critical as being off within the narrower marigins of " -.03 to +.03." frequency deviation for proper HMI operation and if a less expensive, less reliable meter tells you that you're off -0.5, well what do you do? You can't neccesarily see the flicker with your eye. Do you keep shooting the rest of the night or shut down or waste hours getting a new meter or generator, even though you know that -0.5 on your meter might really be a slighty off reading of an acceptable -0.3? You're right, saving that two hundred bucks is going to feel really worth it when an entire production has stopped in its tracks and you can't even be sure if your information is accurate! Awesome, thanks!

"Too many people throw around the term "Crystal Sync" with out understanding what it means or how it is acomplished." It's so insightful that you say this because as I was making the post it occured to me that crystal sync is also used in camera motors and I'm able to answer very authoritatevely "Oh, That Bolex is great but if you want to shoot sync..." etc. and it occured to me yeah, how does crystal sync work? I don't know. So, that's part of of my new research list, along with all of your great suggestions about reading up and talking to people on all those other related subjects. I'll be doing some reading and buying some pizza for my local knowedgeable friends. (I like to do as much reading as possible first. It's like posting here. People are usually glad to answer questions but if you use up your questions with things that you could have looked up, then you may lose your chance to ask the questions that couldn't be looked up because you've used up the fifteen minutes the person made room for in his schedule or the patience of the forum members.) By the way, what's a good light to use for making a film? (KIDDING!!!)

That's great. I had gone from my immediate need to simple maddening curiosity. I have talked to electricians before as I learned how to use a volt meter to plug into wall outlets (and have somebody switch on a light or flip a breaker) to determine circuits but I will get some advice bfore proceeding with this. However, unless I can find a less expensive meter. I may see if I can narrow down the generators to the one that I'm likely to use and bring it to a friendly electrician and see if he can test it while eating the pizza that I bring. I'd like to let it run and test it over half an hour or so to see if stays consistent, also maybe having a load on it to test under those conditions. Thanks!

I'm hoping to use some small HMIs with some borrowed generators. I stopped and watched a film shooting on the street once and talked to the generator operator. They were powering HMIs and he told me that the generator was crystal sync controlled because it was important to mantain a consistent frequency. The generator had a digital red readout which stayed at 59.97 HZ. I'm not sure if this means that what we call 60 HZ is actually 59.97 or if this were an acceptable deviation from 60 HZ but my question is how can I test the frequency of A. a generator and B. a line coming out of an old, old house which might be questionable? I've seen a clip-on amp probe used on a line to measure amperage draw but searching online for information about tseting frequency all I could find were products from which I'm guessing that an oscilloscope is needed. Does anybody know? I'd really like to know, both for this practical apllication and now because I'm really curious. Thanks.

Thanks!

When you get it, could you post how realistic it looks? Thanks.

What are BNC bulb holders? I did a search but could find only electronics companies in India that list but don't explain them and links to video BNC connectors? Thanks.

Wow. Do you use a shoulder brace or support?

That's what I would think, because dimming lights in theater or studio for example shows how warm they can get as you bring them down. However, I know that there are so called dimmable H.M.I.s that have dimmer knobs on the ballasts and from what I've heard about them and dimmable flourescents, color temperature isn't affected (I don't know how but that's what I've heard.)

I needed $50,000.00 for a scene last year. I got a hundred dollar bill and four crew members each brought one as well. Then we got about a hunderd singles each. We had five bundles and the teller at the bank was nice enough to give us the real wrappers that say "10,000.00" on them. With the wrapppers and the 100s on top, it looked like fifty grand.

That other thread had some links and the general sense that a do it yourself project could be done because it's possible to buy high frequency ballasts which will help with flicker although I'll have to find out if they'll help the output at all. I've seen clear plastic protective sleeves for sale at the store and they're not terribly expensive plus they'd be a one time purchase unlike the lights, even though they seem to last pretty long so replacing tubes wouldn't be as much of an issue as needing to replace blue dipped photofloods. It seems to me that if the Kino tubes aren't brighter inherently, then I probably could find some decent tubes for less money. Right now I'm shooting mostly video (Mini-DV) and there seem to be a fair number of tubes with CRIs above 95 and good color temperatures. Is flicker more of a problem when shooting film than shooting video? I beleve that flicker is caused by different frames receiving unequal amounts of light. I like to shoot 24P at 1/48th of a second which I guess is pretty close to film at 24 f.p.s. and 1/50th sec. exposure. Thanks. Yes, but if I have to use a more unwieldy light that I can afford rather than have none at all that should be okay. Thanks for the specific recommendations. I'm going to check them out. As far as minimizing detrimental health effects, it mentions on the Kino site that single tubes may be used handheld if desired. Would this be unwise with other tubes and would it depend on contact with chemicals and/or hotter surfaces? Thanks. I'm going to research tube and ballast combinations and see what I can get. Thanks, Miguel.

"Some useful information"? The replies here are great but I've just spent 40 minutes on that thread following all of its links. It should be a role model for threads. I did a search all forums search before I made this post but I think that I may have been too specific because I got only one thread and it wasn't that one (which I'm surprised I missed in just my general daily perusing.) Yes, I think that you're right on that I can make my money go further by finding some good tubes with good CRIs that aren't necessarily Kinos. Stretching a couple of bucks may mean that I can buy more lights and maybe make both a daylight and tungsten balanced set-up. Thanks.

This is an excellent thread with great posts. There are links, photos, personal experiences. " HF ballasts are easy - some are even dimmable, but they are very expensive and suffer exactly the same problems as dimmable kinos." One question I have is what are the problems with dimmable floursecents? Thanks.

I've seen lots of pictures of the various Kino-Flos but haven't had much opportunity to use them and probably won't for a while. However, I was wondering if I could make out okay buying some standard fixtures and ballasts at a home improvement store but using the Kino tubes. 1. The Kinos are available in daylight or tungsten balance (or close to it I understand) with good C.R.I.s. Do they produce more light than comparable wattage standard (non-film industry) tubes? 2. It seems from the Kino site that their ballasts help prevent flicker. If I bought home improvement store type set-up, would this be a problem? 3. The Kino site has detailed photometrics tables. I was surprised that the light output is much lower than I would have expected given all the shoots I've heard about that use only one or two of the two or four bank 2 ft. or 4 ft. units. What do you think? Could I cobble together a low-budget kit this way?

Good thread. It's lamentable about the loss of jobs but often things come around. I can shoot five 10-12 minute decent looking projects in Mini-DV that look pretty good and give me a lot of experience and cost less than a three minute 16 mm. production would cost. There are lots of "films" being made know that never would have been and more people are able to get started on projects that wouldn't have existed before. It's easier for somebody to take a chance hiring a D.P. who looks good but is somewhat untested on a 12 minute Mini-DV short when that production might cost a $1000.00 or less than if it were a 16 mm. project that would cost ten or twenty times that. Thus, with more productions, more people can get started and maybe work up to good old big film productions.

" Of course I was able to run tests on location and observe the out- comes immediately. With professional digital cameras one can actually use the white light setting creatively." What is the white letting setting and how can you use it? I don't have a digital camera so I would probably have to attempt to determine the color temperatures of the lights and any other sources in the room but a corporate meeting, unlike a film, sounds like the type of production for which you can't correct or swap out lights but have to white balance (Were you shooting video?) to what's there or to your production lights on say the podium speakers. What are the relationships that you can utilize with a digital camera? Thanks.

How far away is the "car" going to be? Unless somebody says "Hey, look at that car in the ditch !", the two lights may not be enough to help the audience get it. If you took a trip to your local auto junkyard you might be able to get two taillight lens asemblies cheaply and affix them above a bumper with your lights behind the lenses. The lighted lenses with a little spill onto the bumper and maybe a license plate might succeed in establishing the illusion. For a cheaper way out, make taillight assemblies by cutting out some squares or rectangles or whatever in a piece of Foamcore and put gels on them and light them the same way. Good luck!