Freya Black

You mean $20! ;) One of the modifications is to take the side off and get at a disc which can apparently be rotated to drive the camera by hand, admittedly very slowly, but it then can create strange images without any power. love Freya

Keep the Nikon Super8 and see if you can do a shuterlless manual crank modification thing on it, the nikons are supposed to be good for that: http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newslett.../sleepP.shtml#p Search the forum at: http://www.filmshooting.com/ for more info. love Freya

Well the 7363 is looking the best for possible camera use as it has short pitch perforations and is described as "medium speed", whatever that means in this context ;) Sadly it seems it is only available in double perf but I suppose it's not that big of a deal. In fact it might even be a good thing if the film is A wind? It seems that a lot of the intermediate films are short pitch which is useful. The sound stock looks good too, it is single perf and B wind. love Freya

Ah I think I worked it out as I just found the intermediate film pdf. It seems that only some of the intermediate film stocks are available in short pitch and none of the print films. I also found out that 16mm long pitch is called 1R-3000 at least it is in single perf. love Freya

I'm suprised this information isn't in the technical data. I looked at the on-line catalogue thing however, and it doesn't seem to tell me anything. I've stared and stared at it till my head hurts. It appears to say that 8 iand 10 are both short pitch, in double and single perf, however having got the numbers 8 and 10 there seems nothing to do with them! Perhaps it is a list of perferations that might be available for any film you come across or something. It doesn't seem to make any sense. The printfilm .pdf earlier, seems to be the same pdf but with some actual useful information on the end, like what I assume are minimum roll sizes. Perhaps we should just assume that all print, intermediate and sound stocks are long pitch? I would imagine this to be the case but I can't be sure. The quick Referance guide is handy tho. Strangely I was searching for my copy of this the other day but I must have accidently deleted it. It's a shame it doesn't list the prices anymore tho but it's great to have a copy again. love Freya

I was expecting it all to look like ortho stocks, hence my question about make up earlier! This is even better, so I actually have a choice of ortho or panchromatic? I assume the sound recording film is the ortho stuff? So you are saying that *some* of the film *is* available even with normal camera perfs!??? I'm going back to look at the specs on the kodak site again! This sounds much better than I expected. love Freya

Hiya marty! Actually I've got a number of things in mind, Firstly I need to run some camera tests, in some ways this might not be a goood film to do this with because of the perferation thing, but at least it would test the optics. However, I can't really afford to "waste" film doing camera tests, so I will probably attempt to shoot something at the same time. Things I have in mind are perhaps some sort of dream sequence for a dv based little movie I have, or possibly even a music video! It is sounding like it might be great for both! At least all the things people are warning me about sound really interesting. Also I would like to try doing some thing along the lines of photograms on film and other such stuff. Experimental things. Lastly I have just finally, ater a loooong time, got a hand crank made for a very old 16mm camera I have. I need to test this, but I also have a love for German Expressionism so I'm quite tempted by some of this silent film look, but maybe that will be going too far for people. Right this second I'm wondering if I couldn't solarise the stuff too! *giggle* I have a problem tho that I don't really know exactly what these stocks might look like. I've only seen one film done with the stuff and now I'm not completely sure what they used! And also it seems like theres much more of a range to choose from than I expected! :) love Freya

Sorry, I think I confused you all for a moment there. I should have said I had black and white stocks in mind, I've never heard of anyone shooting on colour sprint stocks before but just found a whole thread mentioning it! http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/in...wtopic=5845&hl= Which is really interestng. I seem to remember having a conversation with someone about a film they made and I'm sure they said they had used "low contrat print stock" but I can not find mention of such a product on the kodak site now. For Black and white it seems like there might actually be a few options! EASTMAN High Contrast Panchromatic Film 5369 (2369 / 3369 ESTAR Base) [As mentioned by John] EASTMAN High Contrast Positive Film 5363/7363 [As mentioned in above thread] KODAK Panchromatic Sound Recording Film 2374 (ESTAR) All look interesting. Perhaps there are others worth exploring too? I would be interested to know which give the most normal reproduction of skin/people. Which would give the weirdst reproduction, and last but not least, which would be cheapest! :) If theres anything worth looking at amongst the other B&W Print/Intermediate stocks, then I would be interested to know. I'm intending to process as negative BTW if that makes any difference. Perhaps stocks designed for internegative applications would give better results. I'm quite excited by the amount of Black and white, print stocks etc there are! :)

I have to say I'm not too familiar with the 200EE. The big problem with the 200EE is that it is a magaziine camera and those magazines may well not be so easy to come by. There is a company that supplies film pre loaded into these magazines however but it's more expensive as you would expect.. They are supposed to be very steady cameras in terms of registration. For 10 dollars you can't go too wrong, although 19 dollars shipping seems like a lot. It's cheaper than an A-Minima tho, or even hiring one. ;) The 16mm Bell and Howell cameras I have seen have all been really, really good quality. The filmo is obviously very nice as is the 240EE and similar, and they both take normal 100ft spools. love Freya

So anything coloured blue will come out black presumably? I assume the blue layer is so much darker that turning up the blue in post won't help that much? No rem jet is good if I'm going to stick it in a tank myself, I hate the thought of removing that awful backing! I don't mind the film having a strange and different look however, but I would obviously like the various details (eg facial features) in the film to be clear. Would it be worthwhile doing strange things with makeup to make sure that facial features are visible or something? In what way would the lack of blue affect things in practice? I should point out, I have black and white film in mind if that affects things significantly. love Freya

Great information! Thankyou to both of you! I thought it might mostly be available in double perf being a print stock but there are plenty of projectors that use single perf of course, so that is good. Strangely I was worried by the name "low contrast print stock" that there might not be enough contrast, as I have fairly contrasty images in mind so that is also good to hear. lol! Sounds like it is very extreme which might be interesting! :) I knew there would be virtually no latitude and I'm a little worried as to what that might mean in terms of hand cranking, obviously hand cranking will lead to variations in exposure which may not be so much of a problem but it will also mean it will be harder to get the exposure bang on which could obviously be a real problem with no latitude, what do you think? The polyester base means tape splices only I assume? What do you mean about the scissors? I should add that I'm planning to develop myself in a tank and to telecine the footage. Would there be an orange mask on black and white print stock? I'm wondering if the colour cast will be that noticeable on top of all the other stuff anyway, and couldn't I remove it in post? Shooting through a couple of filters on 10ASA film seems like it might not be worth the trouble! Thanks again! :) love Freya

Has anyone here shot on Low contrast print stock succesfully? The 10ASA stuff. I'm considering running it through a hand cranked camera and I'm assuming the latitude won't be great, so I'm worried that it might not be a good combination? I also wonder whether it is available in single perf, being as it is a print stock? I welcome any insights! love Freya

I think it's in some ways easier to have smaller ratios on a short than on a larger piece but obviously the smaller the ratio, the more you may have to comprmise. Also you need higher ratios when shooting on 100ft spools. I think the dv camera is a good idea, that way you can practice and be sure that everything looks right and is working before you shoot the actual film. It also might be handy for continuity. If you are prepared to compromise on the transfer there is: http://www.tfgtransfer.com/ which would reduce costs perhaps? love Freya

How bad is the yellowing? Maybe any colour casting could be timed out in post? I'm sure it could be used to some creative end either way! love Freya

Ah! I'm sorry to scare you, but I did the modification myself. It's probably the easiest 16mm camera to modify I've seen and I wasn't that fearful as I paid 1 pound for the camera (much more for the postage of course) and it needed some looking after anyway (I didn't want to run it without cleaning it up a bit and oiling it) . It's very easy to get at the gate and remove it and of course the side finder thing is just a tube which you can remove the ends from (they just pull off) although I have to say I havn't atempted to modify the sidefinder yet as I want to shoot footage and see how the gate modification worked first. Oh yeah I had to modify it for single perf too of course. That was easier than the gate. The hardest part is going to be the cranking handle as I have to try and talk a man into casting "the bit that connects to the camera" for me and then I may have to do some welding too which I've never done before and really scares me. I suspect the clockwork motor will never run properly on my camera as I think the speed control has been broken off, so presumably even if the clockwork works after all these years it will be locked at a certain speed. Still I think it would be great to have a S16 hand crank camera! :) The lens is, I assume 25mm, and it is a Taylor Hobson Cinar lens! So it is made by the cooke company too! It seems to be a brass lens painted black. Hopefully being 25mm will mean it has the coverage for S16 as I understand coverage problems tend to be more on wide angle lenses. I read this camera is supposed to be c mount but the lens that is mounted on it seems to be attached permanently at this point, even if it was once c mount. I have finally got the lens "almost" clean. I wonder if your kinecam is an older or more recent model than mine!??? love Freya

I'm afraid not, I'm actually in the north of England which is about as far away from Hollywood as you can get! ;) I feel bad now because I'm sure that's the closest I will ever come to an invitation to go to Hollywood and hang out with "industry types" and obviously the ASC is a very well respected organisation. Oh well! Would have been good to score a cranking handle too of course! ;) Oh well, thankyou for the nice offer! :D love Freya

Hiya Dan! Is this an Ensign Kinecam 6? If so I have the exact same camera! When people see it they are quite shocked and one elderly gentleman described it as looking like it had sat in a muddy field for 30 years. While it's in poor condition I have oiled it up and modified it for S16 (not sure of the coverage of the stock lens, guess I find out) and it seems to run quite happily but sadly I don't have a cranking handle so have no idea if the clockwork works or not. I'm planning to get someone to make me a new handle and then at least I should be able to handcrank it. It seems like it should be quite a fun camera! What was your experience with the Kinecam? love Freya

I'm assuming you mean the digital optical output some minidisc players have. The problem with minidisc is not the optical output but the fact it is a heavily compressed system of recording in the same way that .mp3 is, however, you can get good results. Also the mic inputs can often be of lower quality, and not many computers have the optical inputs required to get the audio off the minidisc recorders. Some recorders don't allow control of the gain either which is scary. MiniDV might not be such a bad idea if you can find a camera with XLR sockets and connect a decent microphone and boom to it. The audio/video can easily be transfered off the camera using firewire and you might find it useful to have a mini-dv camera to edit your film on the computer with. There are also digital recorders that just record the sound onto flash memory or harddisks and they are also worth looking at. As with everything, theres lots of different levels at which you can work with sound, and you will undoutedly have to compromise somewhere unless you have oodles of money. Things to look at: Headphones! A good microphone. Perhaps a sennheiser shotgun microphone. A recorder with XLR sockets. A mixer with phantom power and XLR. You may also need to make or buy a boom and possibly a zepplin basket and fluffy cat softie thing. A simple set up might be a Sennheiser microphone that can operate from internal batteries, a recorder with XLR sockets and some way of setting the gain, a boom/fluffy/zepplin, and some reasonable headphones. Theres a lot of options and it depends on budget and what kind of production you have in mind. love Freya

BTW, I feel I may have confused you in another thread where we were chatting about the 240EE. Theres no restriction on shooting any film in that camera either, as long as you do not intend to use the Electronic Eye. If you take the batteries out of the camera and do your metering manually, you can use 500T, 800T anything. The only restriction on speed is the electronic eye, and that's just a luxury anyway, most 16mm cameras have no built in metering system like that. I assumed, wrongly it would appear, that we were talking about the electronic eye metering system. Sorry. See the continuing thread on the 240. love Freya

If this camera is a 16mm camera then it can use any 16mm film stock. The only issue might be if it is only capable of taking double perf 2R film, but the more recent the camera is, the more likely it is to use single perf. As earlier model numbers like the A9 take single perf film, then the A15 will definitely take single perf film assuming it is a 16mm camera. Single perf film of ANY kind will preety much work in any 16mm camera capable of using single perf. The only problems with faster film might be if you are using something like a canon scoopic and you want to use the built in metering, in which case, it only goes up to something like 320 ASA, but then you can still just use the manual controls and use 800ASA film if you so desire. The keystone cameras have no built in metering to the best of my knowledge, so there wouldn't be a speed restriction, but you would either need a handheld meter or have to guess the exposure. If you have a 35mm SLR stills camera, it might have a built in light meter you could use to work out what the settings should be. Apart from restrictions on light metering the only other restrictions on film stocks might be if you have a camera that needs special loads, such as a magazine camera or an a-minima or an old camera that uses 50ft spools. In this case you might have to respool film from the format it is available in which would be a major pain. The only reason I say "If this is a 16mm camera" is that I seem to remember that some of the later A series keystone cameras were double8 cameras, but I think that might have been the A27. The only other restriction on using fast film like 500 or 800 ASA would be if you are in a very bright sunny field or something! ;) love Freya

Now that's a neat idea! You could shoot Vision2 100 with just a filter to drop the speed one stop, while still using the built in metering at 50 ASA! You would still need enough light to shoot at 50 ASA of course. :) I wonder if you could get away with Vision2 100 at 50asa anyway, even without the filter, I know I was nervous about the Kodachrome 40 and the settings available, but neg film is supposed to be more forgiving and I guess it's only one stop? Don't some people like to overexpose neg film half a stop or something anyway?? It might work okay. I happen to love exr 50D of course! :) Thanks for that suggestion John! love Freya

er yeah, we were talking exclusively about the electronic eye, obviously you can use an external light meter and stick whatever stuff you want in there, in which case you could use vision 2 stock or even an 800ASA film. The electronic eye only goes up to 50ASA, so you are a lot more restricted if you wish to use it. I certainly never meant to suggest you couldn't use whatever you liked if not using the EE. Actually shooting neg film, you could probably have got away with the canon at 400 ASA because it's not that far off. (Isn't that about 1/2 a stop?) It's nice to be able to get it bang on if you can tho. :) There are of course some S8 cameras that have no manual settings! (eeek!), so perhaps this is why you bring this up! Thankfully the 240EE is not like those. Oh that's interesting! There must be a version of the lens that is c mount too! How are you finding the lens yourself? Do you have any other lenses, and how do they compare to the super comat? love Freya

Hiya HTTK, Can you tell me what lens is on your camera? My assumption is that it will be the same as mine, a 20mm Super Comat but would love to know, as your fotage is the only foootage I have seen and I have been unable to find out anything about these lenses. Bell and Howell isn't famed for it's lenses but then they could be great or even rebadged lenses from another company, I just don't know! love Freya

Okay bad news I am afraid. The electronic eye only goes up to 50ASA, assuming the speeds are in ASA. See the side of the electronic eye itself and you will see what I mean. This means that you are very limited in film stocks. There isn't a setting for 40 ASA but you might get away with Kodachrome 40 on 50 or 32 ASA. Perhaps not tho because reversal stocks are not very forgiving. You might be able to use Plus-X. However the film is not 50ASA in the new chemistry. If you develop at home, I think you might still be able to shoot 50 ASA on this however. You will not be able to use vision stocks at all, because AFAIK they start at 100ASA. Now heres the one bit of good news. EXR 50D! It's not a vision film stock, but in my opinion it is actually more beautiful, it is very low grain because of the slow speed and the colour and texture is wonderful. It is more like a traditional film stock than the vision stocks, and hence tarantino was using it indoors at one stage (something I don't recommend) in order to get a look more like classic cinema. It's also a negative stock which means that it is more forgiving of exposure mistakes, (such as your EE not being acurate!) EXR-50D is the way to go assuming your EE is acurate I think! Maybe, see above. You might also be able to use low contast print stocks at 10 ASA. These are cheap but you need lots of sunlight. Definitely worth playing with. 50 ASA was probably the fastest film people could imagine when this camera came out! :) Autofocus? I think not! Are you sure? Look forward to the footage! :) love Freya

Can the 240EE use c mount lenses? The answer to this is a resounding no. I know I didn't have lots of replies to this, and it was obviously because my question was really stupid and you felt it was important that I exercised my brain and woked this out for myself. Hence you won't all be going "Oh yeah!" when I point out the following obvious fact: The EE model has an electronic eye. Hence it needs to control the apeture, thus the lens design must be proprietry to allow this control and not c-mount. In fact I expect it is impossible to change lenses at all. I expect this whole part of the camera is a sealed black box and so S16 modifications will also not be possible, although I would love to hear from someone who has found their way inside. love Freya