Guest C.L. Washington Jr. Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 I need guidance on creating realistic gun fire and smoke. Is the firing spark and smoke created in post or are there tricks to make it happen during filming (video filming)? Thanks in advance for your advice and words. C.L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeSelinsky Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 (edited) There are several components to real gunfire: 1) Sound. 2) Muzzle flash, which few guns actually do very vividly, but we like seeing it in the movies. 3) Smoke, which is minimal save for old black powder weapons. 4) Cycling of the action with semi and full auto weapons, including varying degrees of recoil. The best way to go are blanks designed for movie use, they have a higher powder content so they flash long enough to capture on film more easily. Many semiauto's won't cycle with blanks because the bullet that creates air pressure in the chamber is not there. The solution is to mod the gun. Be sure you know what you're doing or face dire consequences (gun blowing up, bodily injury incl. death, etc) Digital methods of doing sparks and so on are expensive - it's easier to do the gun handler thing. If you aren't a firearms expert get someone who you are sure will safely do the job of the gun handler, best idea is to simply get a real one. - G. Edited December 8, 2004 by GeorgeSelinsky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpforum1968 Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Real gun, Hollywood blanks, and an expert weapons master. Don't try this your self it's just too dangerous. I've done a lot of films with guns and we use a weapons expert. You can still be killed by a blank if you're too close to the muzzle when it fires. The real stuff looks the best on film and can be exciting to shoot on set, especially machine guns! DC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeSelinsky Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 (edited) Agree above, if you can afford it of course (insurance is required, to top off the gun handler's fees and the price for gun rental). Yes, some have DIY'ed and I've tried that myself once in my younger years, but if you DIY you can easily make someone DOA if you know what I mean, even if you use blanks. You can do what I did recently when I needed gunfire, I shot with a very real looking Tommy gun and then when it came time for the character to fire I took a small piece of aluminim sheet metal, hit a 1000w open face light at it, and had someone flip it up and down, reflecting the light on and off the actress's face to make it look like the muzzle flash from machine gun fire. I taught her how to fake the recoil and make the Tommy rise as she "shot". I also undercranked. I then did a separate shot of falling .45 shells and then a shot of things getting hit in the room. No gunfire from the muzzle required. I also got a shot of a smoking muzzle after the gun stopped firing, just put a cigarette into the muzzle or blow smoke through a straw into the other end of the muzzle. Easy, very safe, and no firearms people required or real firearms (important if you're filming in a place like NYC where posession of a rifle is categorized as a misdemeanor with a $1000 fine or 3 months jail time as a minimum). Just a creative use of closeups. Even if you don't have real guns, always treat guns like they're real (keeps people's habits right - never point a gun at anything you don't want to hit with it if it were to go off). If you're filming outside make sure you're very careful. I once did a shoot where I had a sniper up in the woods by a park. I was buried into a sand crater with my Eyemo so I wasn't visible to anyone who may have approached. No crew. No permit. The rifle wasn't real but a park ranger approached my actress from behind (he was brave I gotta hand him that - he was unarmed) and asked her what she was doing. We were so engrossed in what we were doing that we didn't hear him approach at all. I thought that we were in such a remote area that nobody would have ever come near. Some cops shoot first and ask questions later, so it's a good lesson for all. - G. Edited December 8, 2004 by GeorgeSelinsky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C.L. Washington Jr. Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Thank you both for your wisdom. C.L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpforum1968 Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Oh yes indeed watch outside shooting with guns, that's a good point. If you get a "gun call" you might be screwed, if neighbours see you and don't know what's going on could be big trouble. You can often get a realistic look these days with air guns that fire red dye. Put a small piece of foam in the end of the barrel soaked in red dye, when this hits clothes it can look good. Of course you'll be shooting it into the chest of a person that could have padding under the clothes. Air guns are pretty safe when used this way, the person being hit won't even feel the impact of the foam travelling at high velocity. Always test first. Or use an air gun with flour in the barrel for the gun firing, and then use a paint ball gun for the person being shot. Do it in two edits. Sounds effects and editing will do the rest. DC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 (edited) Where do you actually get these "stage" guns from? I've been shooting for a long while now but I've never come across a gun made especially for stage. Apart from blank firing guns but they aren't exactly "made" for stage. Oh and yeh I agree, GET A FIREARMS EXPERT. No matter how "in control" you feel, I have seen accidents happen. They were pretty bad, but they were only 6 ft. pound pressure air rifles and CO2 pistols. If they were real then I can safely say I would have one friend less. But, at the time it seemed perfectly safe. (Since as he was shot in the face) I really don't recommend using real guns. Even if you have a firearms expert on site. I knew an extremely experienced shooter, he was demonstrating body armour but it didn't go as he planned and was shot dead. No matter how experienced you are, accidents still happen. Just treat the guns with ultimate respect. Edited December 8, 2004 by Daniel J. Ashley-Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member John Pytlak RIP Posted December 8, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted December 8, 2004 Just a sad reminder: :( http://www.franksreelreviews.com/shorttake.../brandonlee.htm As shooting of the close-up scenes finally wrapped, it was now time to move on to the scene in question. It would call for a wide shot of Brandon's character being shot from a handgun that was loaded with "blank" cartridges. These blanks were loaded into the handgun not knowing that somewhere in the barrel or cylinder, there was a whole or piece of a dislodged bullet. "Blank" cartridges are different from "dummy" cartridges in that the blanks are loaded with highly explosive powder to give the handgun the smoke and muzzle flash associated with having fired a live round... The doctors couldn't stop the severe internal hemorrhaging. He died in the hospital at 1:03 pm on March 31st, 1993, 12 plus hours after the shooting. The investigation determined that the tip of the "dummy" shell had come dislodged and remained in the barrel unnoticed. The "blank" cartridge fired with enough force to propel the broken bullet tip out the barrel and into Brandon. http://www.gettingit.com/article/111 Jon-Erik Hexum, 1984. It was another day of long delays between takes on the set of TV's spies-posing-as-fashion-photographers show, Cover Up. Star Jon-Erik Hexum, the show's hunky heartthrob, tried to liven things up by grabbing a prop gun, putting it against his head, and saying: "Let's see if it's got one for me." He was no fool -- he knew it was loaded with blanks. But he was an idiot. The concussion of the blank and the discharged wadding fractured his skull, sending chunks of bone deep into his brain. He never regained consciousness; the doctor pulled the plug 6 days later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Pacini Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Being both a gun owner, and someone who's obsessed about gun safety, I would act with extreme caution here. Just having a real gun on the set should put everyone in a completely different state of mind, and what happened to Brandon Lee is good evidence of why there's no such thing as being too safe, and the old line I learned in Gun Safety Class when I was 12 years old is relevent here: "There's no such thing as an empty gun". If I were acting in a scece where I got shot, I would insist on personally inspecting the gun before every take, no matter what anyone said, and even if I KNEW it was empty. I had several gunshot scenes in my film Lost Tribes, and I came up with a solution that was 100% safe, and involved having NO REAL GUNS on set. And although it sounds cheesy, it was really believable onscreen. Everyone I asked "thought" they had seen a real gunshot. 1. I used plastic squirt guns painted black. (Don't laugh, the form of some of these is very real, but they now make them bright colors so they don't look real in the hands of a child). 2. I used a still camera flash, and triggered it from the sync pulse from the camera (this was in Super 8). 3. I counted down from 3, and at the moment I needed the gunshot, I fired the flash (toward the actor with the gun), and I had the actor with the gun in his hand "kick", with just the gun (or barrel) being just out of frame. The real trick here is with the audio. People think they see something, when they're really just hearing it. If you don't believe me, watch the opening scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark with the sound off. Right before they go into the cave, when Indy whips the gun out of the guys' hand, it bounces off a rock and goes off? There's no flash, nothing. It's all an illusion by audio. They just dropped the gun on the rocks and put the gun sound in post. They didn't even try to make it look like it's firing, the sound was good enough to convince us. If it's good enough for Spielberg, it's good enough for me! Matt Pacini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Not all guns make a flash anyway, or at least not a big enough one to be noticed. And I HATE those scenes where they drop the gun and it goes off... How un-realistic. (See "True Lies") If I was to use real guns I'd probably make everyone do a training session before hand. Get the feel of the gun, make sure they know what to expect on set. I remember the first time firing my shotgun, scared the crap out of me.. :lol: I think once you have actually fired a real weapon and seen the power in it you suddenly respect it a hell lot more. A bit like me, a shotgun wasn't really a big thing before I fired one. But then I did. And now I wouldn't even place my finger anywhere near the trigger before checking the chamber. Because I have seen the power in those things, and you do NOT PLAY WITH THEM. (Unless you want your head blown straight off that is) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Worth Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 (edited) If this is a video project, you may want to think about doing the effects in post. Here is an example of what can be done with basic compositing: http://rarevision.com/films/gun_test/gun_test.php Edited December 10, 2004 by Thomas Worth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeSelinsky Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 The best rule is to treat even complete plastic prop guns as real guns. I never even point a prop gun at someone. It just puts you in that right state of mind, knowing where the muzzle is always pointing. If you ever mix and match the real thing and a prop gun, it's all too easy in the heat of things to forget that you have the real thing in your hands. Film sets are so full of commotion it's easy to forget. Yes, guns CAN go off if they're dropped. A pistol can. A cocked revolver can. A semiauto rifle can. If a round is sitting in the chamber all it takes is for the shock of the fall to dislodge the firing pin and have it hit the back of the cartridge. Ever hear of slamfire? Some Chinese SKS's had this problem, amidst other poorly maintained semiautos. The firing pin gets jammed and then what happened is you'd load your mag, and when you slam the bolt down to chamber your first round the extruding firing pin hits the cartridge. Naturally that makes it immediately go off, then the semiauto mechanism cycles again and loads the next round, the bolt slams on its own reloading and it fires again, till the mag is empty. Basically your semiauto becomes a live fully auto machine gun that you can't control with the trigger. If the gun is dropped and it slamfires, the gun will start rotating because of the recoil. It's like a machine gunner doing a 360. This could just as well happen with blanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Yes, guns CAN go off if they're dropped. A pistol can. A cocked revolver can. A semiauto rifle can. If a round is sitting in the chamber all it takes is for the shock of the fall to dislodge the firing pin and have it hit the back of the cartridge. Didn't know that. I'd of thought they would make them so safe that things like that just wouldn't happen. Dodgy old world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeSelinsky Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 (edited) Didn't know that. I'd of thought they would make them so safe that things like that just wouldn't happen. Dodgy old world. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I thought they'd make camera magazines safe enough so no AC fogs film, but that's just as impractical... Guns are safe when they're handled properly. The only time you chamber a round is when you're ready to fire, or you need to be ready to fire (i.e. someone's out to get you...). Other than that, leaving a gun somewhere with a chambered round is very irresponsible. That's why even in the movies you always see the guys cocking their pistols, revolvers, and rifles JUST BEFORE they shoot. That's also why on the firing range you have to leave your action open and pop out the mag when the range officer says "cease fire". It is also why every gun person will always, whenever taking any firearm into his hands, open the action and inspect the chamber immediately. It is actually customary whenever handing a gun to another person to always hand it over with an open action. - G. Edited December 9, 2004 by GeorgeSelinsky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest I J Walton Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 (edited) Ever hear of slamfire? Some Chinese SKS's had this problem, amidst other poorly maintained semiautos. The firing pin gets jammed and then what happened is you'd load your mag, and when you slam the bolt down to chamber your first round the extruding firing pin hits the cartridge. Naturally that makes it immediately go off, then the semiauto mechanism cycles again and loads the next round, the bolt slams on its own reloading and it fires again, till the mag is empty. Basically your semiauto becomes a live fully auto machine gun that you can't control with the trigger. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That exact same thing happened to me! We were shooting a scene indoors and I was making a cameo :rolleyes: in my film as a killable goon who runs through the room shooting at the main character. I was using a Beretta 92F blank firing gun which hadn't been lubricated for quite a while, so when I jumped through the door and pulled the trigger the first shot fired and then the firing pin got stuck out, the gun then decided to fire all 12 round in less that a second! So what I got on film was me firing a semi-auto like an Uzi! it kicked so hard that the safetey catches on the slide blew off! then a few seconds of me looking confused at the gun LOL. The moral of my tale is that you should always check that the guns (especially blank firers ) are in good working order and safe, although my encounter was hilarious, It could have been a disaster. So be safe! Note that I now do the gun effects in post :P , they work quite well too, a lot of people think that we are firing blanks. Edited December 9, 2004 by I J Walton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brennan Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Made a doc years ago about how different types of rounds actually impact a person. We used a number of life size clay torsos to replicate the effect, using real rounds at a rifle range. Real rounds , a magnum, buckshot, french police 6 shot (six ball bearings in a shotgun) Ak47, 9mm. Pretty revolting stuff seeing the clay being torn away.... The weapons expert became so excited at the effect of the french police round (it splattered clay all over the place), that he swung around and faced us gun in hand, with a live round in the chamber. And he was an "expert". Mike Brennan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeSelinsky Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 And he was an "expert". <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He was a fool, and he may have very likely violated state law - in many states it is illegal to point a loaded or unloaded gun at another person, be it out of malice or not. - G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korhan20 Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Thomas Worth, are there any tutorials on the internet that you could lead me to so I could learn how to achieve a look like that in post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bosljeff Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 What about something like this? I wish I could afford them. http://www.creative-effects.com/Special_Ef.../Guns/guns.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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