Possible 16mm Student Project

[anamexis]

And don't forget the option of Super 8, which has that great film look and is A LOT CHEAPER than 16mm.

 

Super 8 looks like a perfect fit for your project considering your age, budget and experience; you go through the same production steps as with the larger formats but don't blow your parents' mortgage on the ninety eight silly mistakes you're bound to make learning how to shoot, direct, edit and transfer your film.

 

Look for "The Super 8 Book" by Lenny Lipton.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have looked into Super 8, amd will continue to do so, but there are a couple reasons I've been leaning towards 16mm. Firstly, the artistic one, is that one of the big reasons I like film over video is the flexibility in depth of field. I'm already losing a lot relative to 35mm by going with 16mm, and Super 8 wouldn't allow me much creativity.

Secondly, 16mm is more professional and I believe it would provide me with better applicable experience.

 

I do agree though, that Super 8 generally maintains that film look rather nicely while being extremely economical. I will continuie to consider it as a medium for the project, especially as I more accurately define my budget.

[Robert Hughes]

Here's a tip: don't get seduced by that magical term, "professional". As your first post mentions -

 

"The... question I have is whether this is possible with my level of expertise in film, which is to say, very little.... Basic things like figuring out correct exposure and computing light levels."

 

Unless you are a one-in-a-million natural born filmmaking genius with an innate feel for the process (and that happens now and again), your first few attempts at filmmaking will not impress anybody no matter what format you choose. You could cast caution to the wind and shoot your student project in 35mm with a truck full of lighting gear, but the result would likely be a very expensive, very high fidelity rendering of your inexperience, similar to renting time at Paisley Park before you've learned how to tune a guitar.

 

Don't worry about format dependent issues such as depth of field. They do become important factors eventually, but as your above quote demonstrates, you need to learn the basics of cinematography first; exposure, lighting, framing and composition, focal lengths and perspective, camera movement, etc. And filmmaking isn't just about pretty pictures, it tells stories, using actors who need direction to communicate that story to your audience.

 

Super8, heck even video, will teach you a lot about the basics - as long as you run your camera in manual mode (no autofocus, no autoexposure) and keep aware of your goal. Use the tools you have, or can readily afford, make your mistakes cheaply, and when you're ready for the professional formats they'll be there for you.

[anamexis]

Here's a tip: don't get seduced by that magical term, "professional". As your first post mentions -

 

"The... question I have is whether this is possible with my level of expertise in film, which is to say, very little.... Basic things like figuring out correct exposure and computing light levels."

 

Unless you are a one-in-a-million natural born filmmaking genius with an innate feel for the process (and that happens now and again), your first few attempts at filmmaking will not impress anybody no matter what format you choose. You could cast caution to the wind and shoot your student project in 35mm with a truck full of lighting gear, but the result would likely be a very expensive, very high fidelity rendering of your inexperience, similar to renting time at Paisley Park before you've learned how to tune a guitar.

 

Don't worry about format dependent issues such as depth of field. They do become important factors eventually, but as your above quote demonstrates, you need to learn the basics of cinematography first; exposure, lighting, framing and composition, focal lengths and perspective, camera movement, etc. And filmmaking isn't just about pretty pictures, it tells stories, using actors who need direction to communicate that story to your audience.

 

Super8, heck even video, will teach you a lot about the basics - as long as you run your camera in manual mode (no autofocus, no autoexposure) and keep aware of your goal. Use the tools you have, or can readily afford, make your mistakes cheaply, and when you're ready for the professional formats they'll be there for you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thank you, Robert. I think I have been concentrating too much on my artistic vision when what I really need is to work on the basics of filmmaking first. With that in mind, Super8 certainly does look better. I do demand that I stick to film and not video, though.

[Nate Downes]

For Super8 cams, I run a pair of Chinon myself, find them very solid. They also have manual capability, which should be what you look for. Sankyo is another underrated brand to keep an eye out for.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Every time I run the figures, 16mm comes out being only slightly more expensive than Super-8 anyway.Super-8 stock is £15 for three minutes; super-16 is £80 for eleven; that's £7/minute versus £5/minute, and you're actually consuming about three times as much area of sensitised material. That's also before any student discount, which doesn't exist for s8. Processing is a similar situation, and it's much easier and quicker to get 16mm processed. Telecine is similar, or even better, because so few places do decent super-8 transfers they can pretty much charge what they like.

 

If you can rustle up a camera, shoot 16. But don't write off video; for considerably less money you could rent a decent video camera (any 2/3" chip camera has very similar depth-of-field characteristics to 16mm) and actually have some money left to dress your actors and your set. I see so many crisp, high-dynamic-range, gorgeously graded recordings of productions made lacklustre by the huge money drain of shooting film. Don't destroy the rest of your production in pursuit of the expensive silver-plated plastic.

 

Phil

[Matt Wells]

If you can rustle up a camera, shoot 16. But don't write off video; for considerably less money you could rent a decent video camera (any 2/3" chip camera has very similar depth-of-field characteristics to 16mm) and actually have some money left to dress your actors and your set. I see so many crisp, high-dynamic-range, gorgeously graded recordings of productions made lacklustre by the huge money drain of shooting film. Don't destroy the rest of your production in pursuit of the expensive silver-plated plastic.

 

Phil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Only problem Phil is that he wants it to look good. Unfortunately he doesnt have the budget for lighting and equipment to achieve anything like 16mm on video - also he probaly wants his films to elevate itself, asthetically, above the mountain of video originated material out there.

 

The great thing about film is that you can achieve so much with really minimal lighting.

 

Matt

[Freya Black]

Hi,

 

Every time I run the figures, 16mm comes out being only slightly more expensive than Super-8 anyway.Super-8 stock is £15 for three minutes; super-16 is £80 for

</quote>

 

Hiya Phil,

Your figures seem to be a fair bit out to me but you are not very specific about exactly what you have in mind by S8 or S16 stock. I can't think of a S8 stock that might be £15 even including processing. You can walk into most branches of Jessops in the country and buy a roll of K40 for £13 and that does include the processing. I seem to remember that Vision film stocks and TriX and PlusX are actually much cheaper, but obviously you have the problem of processing with these stocks at least here in the u.k.

 

As for 16mm, the cheapest colour stock for 16mm is about £30 for 100 foot last I looked into it, and that was for the slightly older EXR stock, but perhaps that has changed by now.

 

I would guess that the cost of S8 stock would be something like at least a third of the cost of the same stock in 16mm.

 

eleven; that's £7/minute versus £5/minute, and you're actually consuming about three times as much area of sensitised material. That's also before any student discount, which doesn't exist for s8. Processing is a similar situation, and it's much

</quote>

 

Now that definitely isn't true. Jessops do a student discount of about 10% or a similar discount for buying 10 rolls. You can't combine the 2 to the best of my knowledge tho sadly.

 

Kodak also do a student discount on both S8 and 16mm too, at least here in the u.k.

I remember that it is nowhere near as much as the 20% offered stateside tho sadly.

 

Student discounts *are* available for S8.

 

easier and quicker to get 16mm processed. Telecine is similar, or even better, because so few places do decent super-8 transfers they can pretty much charge what they like.

 

Here you have more of an argument.

Processing for S8 doesn't really exist in the u.k. so it has to be sent abroad. Prices have dropped slightly for the processing but it probably costs a similar amount to getting 16mm film processed or not much different by the time you have paid for shipping and currency conversion etc to Germany or the states.

 

Telecine is generally a similar price whatever the format, and it''s not very available in the u.k. for S8. There are cheap trnsfers available in Norway tho.

 

Mostly you save on the cost of the film and the cost of the camera with S8. At the moment you can get cheap processing too with K40 but that may obviously not be the case next year.

 

If you can rustle up a camera, shoot 16. But don't write off video; for considerably less money you could rent a decent video camera (any 2/3" chip camera has very similar depth-of-field characteristics to 16mm) and actually have some money left to dress your actors and your set. I see so many crisp, high-dynamic-range, gorgeously graded recordings of productions made lacklustre by the huge money drain of shooting film. Don't destroy the rest of your production in pursuit of the expensive silver-plated plastic.

Phil

 

Video is definitely an option too although it has to be said that if you intend to end up shooting on film in the future, you end up being in the situation that you can get nice results on video, but feel somewhat lost and frightened by the huge leap to start working on film. Almost like starting all over again as a beginner, and that can be really off putting.

 

I should also point out that a lot of the downpoints we have discussed are specific to shooting S8 in the united kingdom. If you are on the mainland or in the united states, there are definitely options for processing, telecine etc. Forde for lab work for starters and Flying Spot if you want high end telecine. If you shoot reversal, then you could always get a workprinter transfer too, there are lots of options.

 

In fact, if you are in the states, then the idea of shotting S8, might actually be quite attractive. :)

 

love

 

Freya

Edited May 24, 2005 by Freya

[Robert Hughes]

Anamexis is located in Minneapolis, home of Film & Video Services, a b&w processing lab. Development for S8, 50 foot roll of TriX is $8.00, 100' of 16mm is $16.00 .

[Freya Black]

Bizzarely it seems like there are a ton of us Brits on here at this moment! :)

 

So to capitalise on this while you are all hanging around here, can anyone suggest a supermarket or similar kind of place, where I can buy ziplock bags!

 

I had a look in kwik save but unsuprisingly they didn't have any, but I obviously intend to look in some real supermarkets too. ;)

 

love

 

Freya

[Rik Andino]

It seems like things are very different in Britian...

 

Everytime I see you guys going over your numbers...

The cost of shooting film in the UK is just so expensive...

Probably why it make sense when certain people recommend video.

 

I just can't see how or why it would cost sometimes twice as much as America

 

But it seems in all aspects of life the UK is highly overprice

At least compared to the USofA

Maybe because of the high living expenses

The cost of services in the UK are higher than in the USofA

 

Anyways this is going off topic.

 

 

 

If you really want to shoot 16mm...

Probably the best thing to do is purchase a K3 now

And practice shooting B&W reversal.

 

Like Robert Hughs mention it only cost $16 to develop a 100' roll...

And a 100' roll only cost around $20...(and you can probably get a discount)

So that's $35 for each roll...

 

You can shoot a few practice rolls

And you'll have enough experience to be ready for your project.

 

This is how many filmstudents learn how to shoot 16mm.

 

 

Good Luck

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> I just can't see how or why it would cost sometimes twice as much as America

 

Neither can we, believe me.

 

Phil

[anamexis]

Thanks everyone, perhaps 16mm is still viable. One thing that everyone is forgetting in the cost estimates is that I do not have any projectors, so I have to transfer to MiniDV to get access to my footage, which obviously factors into the cost estimate.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Well, yes, you do - even if you had a projector, you still wouldn't really be wanting to edit film, which is a pain in the neck. Presuming you have some medium-level computer available, have it transferred to DV and cut that.

 

The problem is that you have to think: once you've rented the camera, at least one seriously experienced member of crew, lenses and grip, lighting, bought stock, processed and transferred it.... and you end up with exactly the same DV tape you'd have got out of a video camera for a fiftieth of the money.

 

Phil

[Freya Black]

Thanks everyone, perhaps 16mm is still viable. One thing that everyone is forgetting in the cost estimates is that I do not have any projectors, so I have to transfer to MiniDV to get access to my footage, which obviously factors into the cost estimate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The cost of Telecine can often be the most significant cost.

There are some cheaper options around, especially for S8 where there are workprinter transfers if you shoot reversal, and there are older Rank telecine machines but this can still add up depending on how long your film is. Obviously cheaper telecine is not going to look like a fancy colour corrected transfer on a spirit/shadow either.

 

There are so many variables with telecine that it's really hard to talk about the cost. It depends on what you shoot and all kinds of things.

 

To be fair, you don't have to end up on miniDV, you could end up on digibeta or HDCam, but for low budget filmaking miniDV is very much the preffered choice for a lot of obvious reasons.

 

I don't think anyone should write off film or video, depending on the look you are after, video might be a better choice in some cases and film is obviously a lot more expensive, and sometimes even difficult to work with. It all depends what you are up to.

 

love

 

Freya

[Robert Hughes]

I admire your persistence in working this project of yours. You might try looking up Minneapolis Community Technical College, they have a filmmaking program there for not too much money, and you can get access to equipment thru them. Explain your situation to them and they might take you on.

[Matt Wells]

Like Robert Hughs mention it only cost $16 to develop a 100' roll...

And a 100' roll only cost around $20...(and you can probably get a discount)

So that's $35 for each roll...

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is what I pay in the UK

 

Film: £15 + vat

Processing: 10p / ft. + vat

 

Prices based on 6 x 100ft reels

 

Hi,

 

> I just can't see how or why it would cost sometimes twice as much as America

 

Neither can we, believe me.

 

Phil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It doesnt cost much more

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Then transfer it, which will be at least twice the price and probably three to four times more expensive than the US. For absolutely no reason other than blatant profiteering.

 

Phil

[anamexis]

To try and go through things in order, I do have a edit-worthy computer, I have a Dual 1.8GHz Power Mac G5.

And Phil, I completely understand that video would be cheaper, and I really do respect it as a medium, and I do recognize it as a viable alternative. However, for this project, I really want to stick to film both as a learning experience and because it would be fun and stylistic.

 

I've been hoping to get some advice on telecine. For a project of this scale, what would people recommend for telecine? I've been looking at cheaper places like MovieLab as well as higher class ones.

 

I've been sticking to MiniDV mostly because I can just borrow a little Canon ZR from a friend and dump it on to my comptuer, where as Digibeta or HDCam wouldn't be so easy.

 

Robert, I already applied to the PSEO program at MCTC! :) PSEO is where high school students as myself are able to take classes at college for free. I applied to the media program. However, I'm betting that if I do get in, they won't let me near film as a pre-freshman.

[Matt Wells]

Hi,

 

Then transfer it, which will be at least twice the price and probably three to four times more expensive than the US. For absolutely no reason other than blatant profiteering.

 

Phil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not at all. Assuming the average telecine cost in the States is $200 - $300/hour, are you saying in the UK we pay the equivilent of around $900 - $1200 / hour!

 

The cheapest full Rank telecine I know is £85 per hour at Second City Video in Birmingham (although they often quote per job)

 

Matt

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Let's try apples and apples; there is no Spirit suite in London for less than £500/hour, and that's not even book. Book at one place I could name but won't is £700/hour for standard-def Spirit to digibeta. So yes, we are most certainly paying thousand-dollar-an-hour rates.

 

Phil

[Robert Hughes]

Telecine in Minneapolis: Film & Video Services does an "off the wall" transfer that's not too bad and quite inexpensive. Cinesound 2 in Richfield has a very good Marconi telecine machine that they charge $0.17/foot for 16mm reversal transfer (400' minimum). And there are a couple of high buck shops with Spirits in town also.

 

Cameras in Minneapolis. Cinequipt rents an Arri SB for $95.00 a day. For that money you can buy a a good old Filmo or K3 and shoot for years. The Arri is a good camera but you may not need that level of gear just yet.

 

MCTC: be firm with the administrators. It's your money; tell them you can shoot video at home for free and want to learn film.

[anamexis]

Telecine in Minneapolis: Film & Video Services does an "off the wall" transfer that's not too bad and quite inexpensive. Cinesound 2 in Richfield has a very good Marconi telecine machine that they charge $0.17/foot for 16mm reversal transfer (400' minimum). And there are a couple of high buck shops with Spirits in town also.

 

Cameras in Minneapolis. Cinequipt rents an Arri SB for $95.00 a day. For that money you can buy a a good old Filmo or K3 and shoot for years. The Arri is a good camera but you may not need that level of gear just yet.

 

MCTC: be firm with the administrators. It's your money; tell them you can shoot video at home for free and want to learn film.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for those telecine resources, Cinesound is looking pretty good.

 

I've been going back and forth between rental and a K3. Another thing I've been considering is getting a student membership to the IFP MSP that you showed me and renting from there. That way I would get both good equipment as well as decent rental rates, which would be especially beneficial if i did more in the future.

I do also like the K-3 idea, but I'm just worried that I will get a dud, as that seems to be an issue with that particular camera. It certainly would be very nice to have my own camera that I could familiarize myself and maybe even shoot some short ends with just to get the hang of it, but then there is a chance that it would just bust and I'd be out of $120.

 

As far as MCTC goes, one problem is that it isn't my money, it's state subsidized. Assuming I get accepted into the program (I am expecting to; their academic standards aren't exactly rigorous), I will certainly contact the chair of the media department about getting access to film.

[anamexis]

Also, I can probably have access to some very basic lighting equipment to use too. I'm friends with the head of the lighting department of the theater program at my school. I could probably get my hands on some fresnels, par cans, and scoops over a weekend.

[Josh Hill]

You may not, however, be able to use them in a standard Edison socket because often theatrical units often times use a three pronged plug or a twist lock. If this is the case you will either have to fashion adapters or buy them.

[Rik Andino]

Well he can rent a Jones Box...

Of course here comes the rental issue all over again...

 

You can find alternatives to lighting...

Like Shooting outdoors...(that was something we did in FilmSchool)

Or getting chinese lanterns and clamp lights...

 

When you're a Student you've got to be inventive from time to time...

Because if you're not we you shouldn't be in the industry...

 

Anyways there's lots of ways to get to shoot film...

Just think it over and see which one you can afford.

 

 

Good Luck