Kodak Vision3 500T 5219 night shoot

[Cengizhan Cebeci]

Hello everyone. We are going to shoot some night scene at marketplace kinda area with shops at one side and no light source at another side. Our stock is 500T vision 3. We have cooke S4 lenses and at wide open T2 actors faces lit side is in exposure condition. What i am asking is that the almost no lit background going to be a poblem for us. What happens with the black areas. Too much grain? Of course we gonna shot some tests but i need some enlightenment for the starting point. 

Cengizhan 

[Robin Phillips]

you might want to check this out, 5219 2 perf 2 stop push, rated at 1250 

 

[Cengizhan Cebeci]

Rated 1250 means, they exposed 1-1/3 under? And thank you for this very very good example Robin. 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Cengizhan Cebeci

[Karim D. Ghantous]

2 hours ago, Cengizhan Cebeci said:

Rated 1250 means, they exposed 1-1/3 under? And thank you for this very very good example Robin. 

 

Yes.

[Robin Phillips]

17 hours ago, Cengizhan Cebeci said:

Rated 1250 means, they exposed 1-1/3 under? And thank you for this very very good example Robin. 

 

if they had not pushed, it would be 1 and 1/3rd under exposed. but doing the push, rating it so low vs the 2000 speed the 2 stop push did means its now over exposed vs the pushed speed. you will not get these results at this IE rating without the 2 stop chemical push

[Ludwig Hagelstein]

On 9/11/2023 at 7:09 PM, Robin Phillips said:

if they had not pushed, it would be 1 and 1/3rd under exposed. but doing the push, rating it so low vs the 2000 speed the 2 stop push did means its now over exposed vs the pushed speed. you will not get these results at this IE rating without the 2 stop chemical push

Pushing 2 Stops won't yield an actual effective increase in sensitivity of two stops. At best you get 1/3 of a stop of perceived speed increase per full stop of push processing. So if you take 5219 and push it two stops, arithmetically you'd arrive at EI.2000, but the very maximum effective speed increase in practice would be around 800. So you still have underexposure. Pushing is not a very effective tool to increase film speed. It increases contrast and is much more of an artistic tool than anything else. 

[Fabian Schreyer]

So you are saying that pushing does nothing that could not have been achieved after scanning as well?

[David Mullen ASC]

It's a good question and I've never gotten a consistent answer from colorists, some would rather work with more normal density even it means pushing, some would rather just lift the footage themselves.  In theory, all pushing does is add density to whatever information got captured by the film, it doesn't add information. So maybe some shadow detail gets lifted above the noise floor, but then, the noise floor / base fog level itself gets lifted by pushing. It would be worth testing.

[Ludwig Hagelstein]

1 hour ago, David Mullen ASC said:

It's a good question and I've never gotten a consistent answer from colorists, some would rather work with more normal density even it means pushing, some would rather just lift the footage themselves.  In theory, all pushing does is add density to whatever information got captured by the film, it doesn't add information. So maybe some shadow detail gets lifted above the noise floor, but then, the noise floor / base fog level itself gets lifted by pushing. It would be worth testing.

I think pushing is best approached from 2 angles: Pushing adds something to the look. That is undeniable. But that means also that it is best and most effectively used on purpose. Pushed footage looks different, and that in itself is probably the best case for pushing: If you shoot an ad, for example, and the delivery format is mostly geared towards smartphones, pushing might add just a pinch more "life" to the image, as it accentuates granularity in a specific way that helps sell the message on the small display, while it might look too muddy on a large cinema screen. Pushing is a great visual tool if you know what to expect and work towards it. As a means to correct underexposure it is a double edged sword: If a bit more information matters, better push than not, but it will only bring out density where there is already a latent image present. At the time of exposure the film had a set sensitivity. You can't change that afterwards. When no latent image was formed, no dyes will form. It's a bit easier to pull detail out of pushed neg under some circumstances. 

 

1 hour ago, Fabian Schreyer said:

So you are saying that pushing does nothing that could not have been achieved after scanning as well?

No, certainly not. Pushing changes the look. But it shouldnt be seen as just ramping up the speed without anything else happening. 

Here's a great summary from EKC regarding the subject: 

"Contrast build up from pushed processing is generally most dramatic in the bottom (cyan and magenta) layers of negative film and least dramatic in the top (yellow) layer. This is because development is a diffusion limited process. Contrast mismatch problems are introduced with pushed processing resulting in high red to blue and high green to blue contrast. The relatively high red to blue and high green to blue contrast of the negative produces yellow highlights and blue shadows in the print when mid-scale neutrals are balanced. In many cases the yellow highlights may have a red bias because the mismatch tends to be higher in the cyan layer compared to the magenta layer. It should also be noted that contrast mismatch varies with exposure; stronger effects with over exposure, weaker effects with underexposure. Under exposure, combined with pushed processing, tends to lessen the effects of increased contrast from pushed processing alone. Differences in exposure and scene content may have a significant effect on the perception of color in the resultant print, when pushed processing is used.

ER speed increases with Push processing may be significantly less than needed to offset speed loss from under exposure. With the given conditions above, Push 1 processing produces ER speed increases of less than a 1/3 of a stop and Push 2 produces ER speed increases of around 1/2 of a stop. Push 2 taken in combination with two stops of under exposure represents a stop and a half loss in real speed. 

Push processing is not recommended as a means to increase photographic speed. Push processing produces contrast mismatches notably in the red and green sensitive layers ( red most) compared to the blue. This produces reddish- yellow highlights, and cyan- blue shadows. Push processing also produces significant increases in film granularity. Push processing combined with under exposure produces a net loss in photographic speed, higher contrast, smoky shadows, yellow highlights and grainy images, with possible slight losses in sharpness."