New to the ACL II and need help loading in the 400-ft mag

[Skyler Carrico]

Hi all,

I've been using my Eclair with 200-foot mags for awhile now, but I'm currently undergoing my first time ever loading the (English) 400-foot magazine. I can't get it to run properly, and I think I'm having trouble with the final spindle. Photos of my take-up side are uploaded here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1nnyGXLtf85CuCrCTvmhwhp9alw0OUwsP?usp=sharing

The arrows do not make clear how one is to route film with respect to the final spindle, and with the little smaller spring-loaded black spindle that extends off of it. The only way that makes sense to me is for it to go up and over the top of the black spindle, as is shown in Photo 2, but when I do, the film immediately bulges up above the black spindle, like shown in Photo 1. What is the right way for it to go? 

Somehow there are no existing resources online for this particular magazine, not even in the ACL manuals. I saw one post on here where the magazine had the black spindle in the opposite position (below the bigger silver one it's attached to). Any help is appreciated.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Skyler Carrico

[Gregg MacPherson]

Have a look at this pic of the take up side. See where I have the little tensioning idler roller just before the take up arm. Yours, in your photo is rotated about 180deg compared to mine. 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1fkhcq4dwqk2ixwcs4726/take-up-side.jpg?rlkey=z375dybyzy9ng0wlc7hv2gxjv&dl=0

 

Have a look at these pics of a loaded Eng 400' mag..See where the idler is positioned when it's tensioning the film.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/eu745bk5awgvugvw31eof/ACL-9.JPG?rlkey=kxgj797ky3bcfnuduhur0iozg&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ro8y0kwkpoky5tde1z26i/MVC-006F.JPG?rlkey=r3z16d33wi7l7rulttogp1zug&dl=0

 

What follows is my best guess..

I thought there was only one possible position of the spring anchor for the idler. Maybe the spring has been deformed. You could take the idler off and have a look. I'm trying to remember how the spring anchors, I think it was just a hole drilled into the mag body. 

Looking at the donor here, there should be pretension on the idler spring. I'm guessing yours is slack. If so the idler could be removed and the spring pretensioned by rotating 360deg before refitting. (Edit: In hindsight I don't you need to do that, just fit the spring anchor to the hole). If you aren't comfortable working on it, any camera tech could do it after reading the notes above.

I have a parts donor here, but I don't think you need parts.

Gregg.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Gregg MacPherson

[Skyler Carrico]

On 12/16/2023 at 3:33 AM, Gregg MacPherson said:

Have a look at this pic of the take up side. See where I have the little tensioning idler roller just before the take up arm. Yours, in your photo is rotated about 180deg compared to mine. 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1fkhcq4dwqk2ixwcs4726/take-up-side.jpg?rlkey=z375dybyzy9ng0wlc7hv2gxjv&dl=0

 

Have a look at these pics of a loaded Eng 400' mag..See where the idler is positioned when it's tensioning the film.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/eu745bk5awgvugvw31eof/ACL-9.JPG?rlkey=kxgj797ky3bcfnuduhur0iozg&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ro8y0kwkpoky5tde1z26i/MVC-006F.JPG?rlkey=r3z16d33wi7l7rulttogp1zug&dl=0

 

What follows is my best guess..

I thought there was only one possible position of the spring anchor for the idler. Maybe the spring has been deformed. You could take the idler off and have a look. I'm trying to remember how the spring anchors, I think it was just a hole drilled into the mag body. 

Looking at the donor here, there should be pretension on the idler spring. I'm guessing yours is slack. If so the idler could be removed and the spring pretensioned by rotating 360deg before refitting. If you aren't comfortable working on it, any camera tech could do it after reading the notes above.

I have a parts donor here, but I don't think you need parts.

Gregg.

Hey Gregg. Thanks so much for this- sorry for the late reply.

I was actually able to reorient the idler position to the correct (180 degrees flipped) position just by adjusting the flathead screw - it moves to the other position (like shown in your photos) when you turn that screw counterclockwise. 

I ran some film through and things seemed to be working/sounding okay, until about 10-20 feet in, when I started hearing bad sounds. Opened up the mag and found a huge mess, and that the tensioner had loosened at bit. 

What I think I need to know is how tight that tensioner needs to be. As I adjust the flathead screw, it can become quite highly tensioned. How much give does yours have? 

Here's a video to show what I mean: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AhN4BLulxTZST-YTuGbKUhaDRK7R0MNu/view?usp=sharing

[Skyler Carrico]

I just tried running it, and the film seems to be running fine, except at the take up spool, where a gap starts to gather... See photo here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hQnogn92WNPXb1RkmOXWoUnVNC1WUnCO/view?usp=sharing

[Frank Wylie]

See this from Verne and Sylvia Carlson's "Professional Cameraman's Handbook" (get a copy, they are cheap):

This book makes no distinction between the 200 and 400 foot magazines, and it's been a LONG time since I handled an ACL, so there may be variations on the types of magazines of which I am unaware.

However, I would think this general area of the magazine would remain pretty much unchanged, but...

Edited December 25, 2023 by Frank Wylie
clarification

[Skyler Carrico]

Frank,

Unfortunately this doesn't help me. The diagrams are for a 200 mag, and my 400 mag is completely different, particularly the final roller, which the 200-mag doesn't have at all. Surprisingly, there are no such diagrams online for a 400 mag.

[Gregg MacPherson]

3 hours ago, Frank Wylie said:

See this from Verne and Sylvia Carlson's "Professional Cameraman's Handbook".......

....I would think this general area of the magazine would remain pretty much unchanged.....

Hey Frank,

The French 400' , 200' mags and I think the Eng 200' mags take up with emulsion out as in the photos you show above, but the Eng 400' mag takes up emulsion in. There's a Dropbox link to a threaded Eng 400' mag photo in my post above.  The Eng design engineer had no restraint when adding complexity to solve design problems, so I guess adding a gear to change the direction of rotation was inconsequential.

I'm not expert in the minutiae of small design changes in ACL (Boris Belay might be), but I know there was a small threading change in the later French mags. An extra roller as the film arrives at the drive sprocket, and a partitioning barrier between the feed and take up film at that point. I think this later ver is shown in the ACL 1.5 manual. Here's a photo...

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ycbv8azk5q3xih4/AABZgXIWIb7vXemO_QQtr8sOa?dl=0&preview=FR3+7.jpg

On some S16 conversions, these mylar collars/washers appear, but they don't change the thread path.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ycbv8azk5q3xih4/AABZgXIWIb7vXemO_QQtr8sOa?dl=0&preview=Pat1+7.jpg

I always made sure that the cans to the lab were labeled EI or EO.

 

In your photo with the thread path drawn in red above. I don't think that is correct. It threads around an extra (non existent) roller. It should exit the guide shoe roller (5), then go under roller (3), then over roller (2), oui..?.

There will be some videos on youtube hopefully. We need some mag loading vides somewhere easy to find on the forum, maybe in the Notes for New ACL Users thread...

Gregg.

 

 

 

[Gregg MacPherson]

8 hours ago, Skyler Carrico said:

I just tried running it, and the film seems to be running fine, except at the take up spool, where a gap starts to gather... See photo here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hQnogn92WNPXb1RkmOXWoUnVNC1WUnCO/view?usp=sharing

First, the idler spring...tightening the slotted screw attaching the idler should have no effect on spring function. perhaps the spring anchor is out of its hole. Hold the take up arm well out of the way, then...Remove the idler, note where the spring anchor goes into a little hole in the mag body. refit the idler, trying to drop the anchor into the hole.

There is a small cover plate at the root of the take up arm that may get in the way a bit, but I managed to remove and replace the idler while that was left in place. My drive sprocket assembly with its mounting plate was already removed, but I don't think that will get in the way.

Now the take up problem...I'm assuming that all your toothed belts are good. They seem to be indestructable, 40 years old. The most likely source of a problem is that the tractor tyres on the end of the take up arm are not working properly. They look like they have been replaced with an O ring or something like that. The tyres should be a rectangular section, snug fitting the "hubs", and both the same, so that the function is equal, both sides. I'll try listing the possible problems...

- Tyres deteriorated.

- Tyres incorrect section shape, so slipping on hubs (but O rings may work, I never tried it).

- Tyres too big (so slipping) or too small, so incorrect outer diameter.

- Hubs not cleaned properly when tyres changed (so tyres not fitting properly).

- Tyres slipping on hub (stray lubricant or slippery surface).

You can have the rubber tyres made, quite cheap, by people who make rubber washers by simple stamping process. There may be a little furryness on the edge, but just sand paper that off.

Gregg.

 

[Gregg MacPherson]

On 12/16/2023 at 12:02 PM, Skyler Carrico said:

...I've been using my Eclair with 200-foot mags for awhile now, but I'm currently undergoing my first time ever loading the (English) 400-foot magazine......

The Eng 400' mag was designed to have a low current draw so it would run ok with the small original ACL motor. They do work fine with any ACL, but they have a couple extra maintenance protocols and without that care they can give trouble with take up. The best long term solution if you haven't got a tech that knows them is to sell the mag to someone with a small motor, and use French mags.

I did fully service two or three Eng 400' mags but it was a lot of work. I'm not a trained tech, just patient and technically minded. Average person is not. Who is the nearest camera tech to you..?

Gregg.

 

[Frank Wylie]

On 12/25/2023 at 4:14 PM, Skyler Carrico said:

Frank,

Unfortunately this doesn't help me. The diagrams are for a 200 mag, and my 400 mag is completely different, particularly the final roller, which the 200-mag doesn't have at all. Surprisingly, there are no such diagrams online for a 400 mag.

 

On 12/25/2023 at 4:20 PM, Gregg MacPherson said:

Hey Frank,

The French 400' , 200' mags and I think the Eng 200' mags take up with emulsion out as in the photos you show above, but the Eng 400' mag takes up emulsion in. There's a Dropbox link to a threaded Eng 400' mag photo in my post above.  The Eng design engineer had no restraint when adding complexity to solve design problems, so I guess adding a gear to change the direction of rotation was inconsequential.

Skyler and Gregg,

Ah, I see.  Sorry to have muddied the waters!  Good luck finding a solution...

[Skyler Carrico]

On 12/25/2023 at 1:52 PM, Gregg MacPherson said:

First, the idler spring...tightening the slotted screw attaching the idler should have no effect on spring function. perhaps the spring anchor is out of its hole. Hold the take up arm well out of the way, then...Remove the idler, note where the spring anchor goes into a little hole in the mag body. refit the idler, trying to drop the anchor into the hole.

There is a small cover plate at the root of the take up arm that may get in the way a bit, but I managed to remove and replace the idler while that was left in place. My drive sprocket assembly with its mounting plate was already removed, but I don't think that will get in the way.

Now the take up problem...I'm assuming that all your toothed belts are good. They seem to be indestructable, 40 years old. The most likely source of a problem is that the tractor tyres on the end of the take up arm are not working properly. They look like they have been replaced with an O ring or something like that. The tyres should be a rectangular section, snug fitting the "hubs", and both the same, so that the function is equal, both sides. I'll try listing the possible problems...

- Tyres deteriorated.

- Tyres incorrect section shape, so slipping on hubs (but O rings may work, I never tried it).

- Tyres too big (so slipping) or too small, so incorrect outer diameter.

- Hubs not cleaned properly when tyres changed (so tyres not fitting properly).

- Tyres slipping on hub (stray lubricant or slippery surface).

You can have the rubber tyres made, quite cheap, by people who make rubber washers by simple stamping process. There may be a little furryness on the edge, but just sand paper that off.

Gregg.

 

Thanks a lot Gregg, appreciate this.

First, just need a bit more guidance on the idler spring... I'm having trouble removing the roller to adjust the spring. All I've been able to do is turn the slotted screw so as to get it super loose (and now I can't get it tight again). Any knowledge on how that roller comes off so I can get to the spring?

[Gregg MacPherson]

Without a drawing to refer to I just want to be clear on what I am referring to as the idler roller assembly...It's the largest visible roller on the take up side, with a little roller on a short swing arm. If the slotted screw is removed the big pully and the swing arm assembly can be lifted off. The spring is inside the central housing with the swing arm attached. You will see where the spring anchor (the bent end of the spring) will sit in a hole in the mag body.

If the spring anchor is out of its hole then tightening the slotted screw could jam it against the mag body, giving a semblance of correct spring function.

Remove the assembly and refit with the spring anchor sitting in the hole. Might as well clean and lubricate while you are in there.

[Skyler Carrico]

On 12/28/2023 at 6:31 AM, Gregg MacPherson said:

Without a drawing to refer to I just want to be clear on what I am referring to as the idler roller assembly...It's the largest visible roller on the take up side, with a little roller on a short swing arm. If the slotted screw is removed the big pully and the swing arm assembly can be lifted off. The spring is inside the central housing with the swing arm attached. You will see where the spring anchor (the bent end of the spring) will sit in a hole in the mag body.

If the spring anchor is out of its hole then tightening the slotted screw could jam it against the mag body, giving a semblance of correct spring function.

Remove the assembly and refit with the spring anchor sitting in the hole. Might as well clean and lubricate while you are in there.

Thanks Gregg.

Realized the reason I was struggling was because I was trying to make the adjustment with film still in the other side of the mag, not realizing that the screw to remove the assembly is on the other side.

Took me a couple days to procure a screwdriver tiny enough to be able to move that slotted screw. When I removed it and the assembly came out, I discovered there is simply no hole for the spring anchor to drop into on the take up side. Nothing at all for the little anchor to hold onto. Here's a photo, not sure if you can tell. Should I try to drill a little hole for the anchor to drop into? The spring itself seems fine...

[Gregg MacPherson]

Sorry, I;ve been a bit sloppy in my description and that made it harder for you. 

The idler assembly with the big pully sits on a spindle. The spring sits inside the big pully and the spring anchor goes into a hole in the flange on the spindle (not the mag body). I left the spindle in place. Removing the slotted screw the idler assembly , pulley, spring just lifts off. See this photo... https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/if8um8sdoboc060hdm9sn/take-up-idler-assy.jpg?rlkey=u7w5v9zwxed08jvy2bm6oo8pb&dl=0

I don't know if adjusting the spring tension is possible by loosening the screw on the feed side.  I can't remember doing that, but I'm not sure. I left the spring tension as is. Did you try. The spring pre tension on mine was given by a 180 degree rotation. So if you re mount the whole assembly with the spring relaxed, idler rotated 180 degrees from the tensioned position, it's done. IE, one is adjusting the spring pre tension by rotating the entire assembly. Give it a try.

The spring pre tension can affect the take up wind, and I suspect the idler spring pre tension required is not that much. Years ago I fixed take up problems on a mag and may have adjusted spring pre tension, but I just can't remember. Sometimes you have to solve unfamiliar problems by accurate observation, analysis and a little experimentation. Just try not to do any damage.

Note that all the plain bearing surfaces need lubrication, CLA at some interval.

Gregg.

 

Edited January 2 by Gregg MacPherson
more words

[Gregg MacPherson]

So I had a look and one can, leaving the whole pully and idler assembly in place, adjust the spring pre tension by releasing the screw on the feed side. Rotate the assembly to the correct relaxed position, then tighten the screw.

Very simple. Sorry I did not check earlier. I have a faint memory of having done it years ago also.

I'm not sure what the correct spring pre tension is. The techs would have had a torque spec and a rule of thumb for the relaxed position of the assembly. I think I just guessed and was happy when the take up worked.

Did you fix it?

Edited January 3 by Gregg MacPherson
more words

[Skyler Carrico]

15 hours ago, Gregg MacPherson said:

So I had a look and one can, leaving the whole pully and idler assembly in place, adjust the spring pre tension by releasing the screw on the feed side. Rotate the assembly to the correct relaxed position, then tighten the screw.

Very simple. Sorry I did not check earlier. I have a faint memory of having done it years ago also.

I'm not sure what the correct spring pre tension is. The techs would have had a torque spec and a rule of thumb for the relaxed position of the assembly. I think I just guessed and was happy when the take up worked.

Did you fix it?

Unfortunately such is not the case for my mag. Could be because I just don't have the proper tools and cannot procure them, I'm on a remote island with limited supply in the Azores, but like I said, there's nothing for that anchor on the end of the spring to even drop into. It's all apart now and I have no idea what to do. Your previous message is frankly entirely beyond my grasp, not even able to understand what you're describing.

Could you just provide me with some input on who in Europe might service this magazine? Seems like separate from the the issue with this roller is also the problem I was having with how it takes up film - the o-ring thing on the take up arm.

Also probably should just look into getting a French 400 mag, since I have the ACL II with the stronger motor. 

[Skyler Carrico]

Here's a video to further explain. Regardless of tension or lack thereof, I'm not even able to get the roller tightened down.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1elN8kWzqU8zlwVQETeJc9eNYiteEE2aX/view?usp=sharing

[Gregg MacPherson]

I have sometimes taken a cheap screwdriver that was a little too big or thick and carefully ground it to size. Incorrect or inexpertly ground screwdrivers can easily cause a little damage.

The screw on the feed side needs to be tightened, with the idler assembly in the correct position with the spring relaxed.

Les Bosher might have experience with these mags. Any camera tech could fix the idler mounting, though he will wonder what the correct spring pre tension should be. Some experience may be required if there is a troublesome issue with the take up wind being loose or not tracking straight.

As well as the possible causes for take up problems listed earlier, add...

- Take up arm pre tension. There is a means of adjusting that on the feed side.  Really needs a custom tool to rotate it. I have done it without that but sometimes scratched it. Needs a little skill, expertise.

- The take up platter and guides on the door. The factory mags had 200' sized platters, and with a properly maintained mag the 400' roll takes up straight without the bigger platter to sit against. But if there are any tracking problems due to the rubber take up tyres then the bigger platter could help. But it's better to have the rubber tyres working properly.

(Edit)..You platter is odd. Looks like the film might catch or scrape on the surface, especially if the take up tracking was not true.

Where are you located?

Edited January 5 by Gregg MacPherson

[Eric Eader]

Hello Skyler,

While the Azores are not the most gun friendly of places in the world, you might try finding a gunsmith, who WILL have a proper set of screwdrivers he can use to loosen the magazine screw without damage.

He may also have for sale a set of "gunsmith screwdrivers."   Typically, they are flat shaped, NOT, wedge shaped as standard hardware store flat head screwdrivers.  That means less likelihood of mangling the screwhead and surrounding surface.

Wheeler gun screwdriver kits in (various sizes), are very popular in the USA and can be found online at Brownell's or Amazon.

What brand is popular for Portugal, I don't know; and whether or not the screw you point out is necessary for proper repair, I am sorry I don't know either, but I do know that proper gunsmithing screwdrivers present far, far less chance for mangling and defacing expensive and rapidly becoming rare magazines and other camera gear.

Properly cared for that kit will last beyond your lifetime.

I hope this will go at least a little way toward solving your problem.

[Gregg MacPherson]

It's good to emphasise the importance of properly fitting screwdrivers. Gunsmith sets are an interesting idea I never thought of. They are a bit expensive here. I used to have a specialist tool shop nearby and I could buy a selection of expensive good quality small size screw drivers. Since then I have found inexpensive, quite good quality sets of hollow ground screw drivers at the budget hardware and auto supply shops.

Have a look at the shape of slothead screw drivers online....normal vs hollow ground etc...

One problem is that the slothead screws on the ACL often have quite narrow slots , so without the perfect driver set, one sometimes has to use a smaller driver so as to fit the slot. Obviously a driver that fits the slot perfectly and is the width of the screw head is ideal.

Edited January 6 by Gregg MacPherson