Dont understand Lighting

[Guest bigal]

I think another thing to point out is that you can't expect to learn everything about lighting just from reading books or taking a class or from doing a couple shoots or plays. It takes alot of time, years even, to fully grasp everything. I started teaching myself lighting about 2 years ago when I was a junior in high school and became the lighting and sound director for my theatre. Since then, I have learned alot about lighting but there is still ALOT more that i need to understand/learn and practice before I can even say that I know alot about the subject. And I think it's that way with most, if not, all film makers.

[Chris Keth]

I think another thing to point out is that you can't expect to learn everything about lighting just from reading books or taking a class or from doing a couple shoots or plays. It takes alot of time, years even, to fully grasp everything. I started teaching myself lighting about 2 years ago when I was a junior in high school and became the lighting and sound director for my theatre. Since then, I have learned alot about lighting but there is still ALOT more that i need to understand/learn and practice before I can even say that I know alot about the subject. And I think it's that way with most, if not, all film makers.

 

 

Absolutely, I remember a bit of interview with Conrad Hall shortly before he died where the interviewer mentioned his "mastery" of lighting and he replied that he was far from a master, but still a student!

[Mario C. Jackson]

Lighting for me is something that is almost unexplainable. Everyone has different lighting style and that alone is what makes our jobs so great. The fact that you don't understand lighting is ok. Their are dp's who don't like putting up lights and just prefer to use natural lighting and then just push in post. My advice would be to do a scene without putting up any lights and then shoot the exact same scene to where you put up lights. Then see which one you like the best.

Hope this helps

Mario C. Jackson

[Jonathan Spear]

David S.,

 

Watch a few of your favorite movies again. Try to pay close attention to what seems 'natural' and what seems accented or manipulated. You may be pleasantly surprised.

 

If you shoot in broad daylight and use reflectors and flags and filters to finesse the sunlight, cut unwanted spill and maintain the type of shadowing you're interested in - then by all means use available light. The sun is a pretty amazing source of light after all.

 

On the other hand, if you want to really add depth and dimension, to accent curves, lines, faces, etc., you'll be better off using light fixtures in conjuction with the sun (or instead of) - maybe at a later time of day when the sun isn't blasting away overhead. You may get a more refined, interesting look. Besides, it's always smart to have a few lights handy just in case. Especially if there's a specific look you, the director or your client are after.

 

As for video vs. film lighting.. well, perhaps there are subtle differences between the two mediums, but think about it dude.. you're creating a specific (or at least it should be!) image to help convey your story through a specific setting, mood and feel. If you light your subject to accent something in particular or bring out one if its attributes ------ it won't matter whether the image is recorded on a video camera or a film camera. Both yeild the image pointed into their sensor / lens (light). Just make sure to light the damn thing properly. No easy task!

 

-Jonathan

 

------------

 

P.S. - I have no real experience lighting yet, so I don't really understand why your original post recieved the responses it did, but it may be because of something like this:

 

INT. DAVID'S ROOM

 

Young David and his girfriend are making out under covers.

Naughty Dave reaches for second base..

 

DAVID S.

Mm..Let's f--k.

 

GIRLFRIEND

Wha? :angry:

You bastard! That's all you ever think about!

 

DAVID S.

But I thought young horny teenage girls love to f -

 

GIRLFRIEND

Why do you have to use that word, Dave?

I love you.. I thought you -

 

David grabs her nipple. Squeezes it.

 

DAVID S.

(interrupts with biting sarcasm)

Fine! Let's "make love" then.

 

She's about ready to slap him.. but holds back.

She gets dressed, storms out of bed and slams the door behind her.

 

David smirks:

 

DAVID S.

Women!

Edited November 21, 2005 by TSM

[Joshua Provost]

David S.,

 

Hang out in these forums for a few months and just read... and you will learn a ton!

 

My advice would be to take your script and review it again thinking about lighting specifically. What are the motivations and emotions of each scene, and how can you use lighting to accentuate them? Almost every scene will look better by adding some controlled lighting, even if you don't know exactly what you're doing.

 

Josh

[Laurent Andrieux]

The guy didn't show up anymore... May be he's into writing books by now, and posting on a litterature forum "I don't understand writing, why should we guys care about grammar and all that ?" or into architecture "why do we care about material carachteristics ? boring !" etc.

[Jonathan Spear]

If he can take the critisism from the replies and, nevertheless, retain interest in his filmmaking endeavors and keep coming back to the site.. well.. that's a first step. How many people here remember the first time their hopes and dreams were shattered in an instant - for the first time? Remember how it was like to feel invinsible? Invisible ;)?

 

Newbies have ballz of steel.

[David Silverstein]

You guys are the kings of filmmaking. I wish I was like you. Most of you never even have directed anything so please dont act like you know everything.

 

The conversation could have stoped at the 4th post but people like to make people feel bad so they can feel good. All you need to grow up.

 

By the way I learned how lighting works by looking it up in my Video Basics 3 textbook and I have pretty decent basic grasp on it so let the flaming begin again dont mind me.

 

And I appreciate the understanding TSM. We do at least from here and other forums take a lot of poop but we will see how everyone turns out no one here is even worth calling a professional. I am at the age 16 and im getting paid 100 dollars a day to shoot sports for 3 hours. I am working 2 days this week and getting 200 dollars a week. I bet thats more then some people on here who are flaming me but flame on if it makes you feel better I can take it.

[Luke Prendergast]

Read the thread again junior and point to the flames. I missed them. Despite your moronic and insulting statements regarding something you understand only to the point of your 'Video Basics 3 textbook' there was more disbelief returned than hostility. Take the advice of Joshua Provost - read, and only open your mouth if you have something to contribute or you wish to learn.

[Daniel Sheehy]

By the way I learned how lighting works by looking it up in my Video Basics 3 textbook and I have pretty decent basic grasp on it

 

There's a bit of a difference between knowing 'how lighting works', and being able to apply that knowledge...

[Laurent Andrieux]

Most of you never even have directed anything so please dont act like you know everything.

 

Directing and lighting is not the same job.

[Jonathan Spear]

""And I appreciate the understanding TSM. ""

 

Heh. Dude, you didn't understand. Read my post again.

 

And you can bash the guys here as much as you want, the more experience you get the more you'll regret what you've said. That said, don't waste any more time burning bridges you haven't even crossed yet. Go pick up a few books from the Cinematography.com bookstore and, once you've been slightly humbled with knowledge, feel free post away!

 

Ironic isn't it? You really want to make it in the business/art of filmmaking... popularity.. chicks (?).. $$.. yet you choose to challenge the very people who are currently where you wish to be at one day. Put down the sword and pick up a pen.

 

-Jonathan

[Guest bigal]

I'm sorry to say David, that you remind me of a kid that was in my film class. And yet in 3 years of that class he was only only able to complete one sub-par project due to his cockyness and repeatedly asked for people like me to help out, which we refused. Being humble goes along way. And $100 for three hours isn't much to brag about. That's below the standard rate in Memphis for a good amature, so i'm guessing it's way way below the standard in NY. Try reading, asking polite questions, and thanking those how give you responses and maybe you'll find this forum alot more helpfull. Also a good way to get experience in mood lighting is at high school or community theatre. I find that watching/participating in plays is another good way to learn.

[Guest dbledwn11]

David, it looks like you're gonna have to create a new account with a different name if you ever want any more advice cause i think you've just isolated yourself from nearly everyone in this community.

 

I think you just have to ask yourself this - if all anyone had to do was read 'Video Basics 3' why would so many people in this world class cinematography as an art form? - we'd all be able to do it!

 

You wouldn't expect everyone to be able to paint a Monet because they read 'Watercolour Basics 3', would you?

 

also, doesn't the word BASIC in the title kinda give away that the text is only intended to give you a BASIC understanding of the subject?

[David Silverstein]

I guess I took everything the wrong way and everyone ganging up on me shows maybe I was wrong. But I just wanted to know the basic principles of lighting and I am sorry for calling you guys cocky and all that stuff. But please do not flame me and make fun of my lack of knowledge. I havent been doing this as long as most of you but I have read many books and im trying my best to learn as much as I can.

 

The way I felt was everyone was making fun of my becuase I didnt understand lighting. I read one page in a book and understood it after that. I didnt ask to tell me how to be a pro I just wanted to know why it was so important and I dont think that was to hard of a question to ask any other forum and any other first poster other then David Mullen and I would have gotten decent answers.

 

But I do apologize and hopefully thats more then that kid in your class ever did. I am not cocky at all I was just defensive becuase I felt I was getting made fun of for no reason.

 

To be honest I suck at taping football games but I guess I just know the right people.

 

Thank You

David

Edited November 26, 2005 by David Silverstein

[David Mullen ASC]

I think we all appreciate the apology and explanation. There was nothing wrong with your original question; it's just the way you worded it that rubbed some of us the wrong way. But we all know that tone is hard to convey in an internet post. Keep asking more questions.

[Laurent Andrieux]

I read one page in a book and understood it after that.

 

That goes to prove you weren't that far from understanding what people were trying to tell you. I'm glad you made your way, and found out the importance of the job.

 

If we might have helped you out, well, great !

 

We actually should ask ourselves many questions if weren't able to explain and convience someone of the importance of lighting !

[David Sweetman]

Hi, I'm not him, I'm the other David S.

 

Dave, I was in the same place as you two years ago. And I can tell you the only way to develop an understanding of lighting is to light. Just like you, I did some reading and thought I would be okay when I went to an exterior location at night and threw up some 650's. The "Video Production Handbook" taught me about three-point-lighting, and that's what my teacher had explained to me, so when I put up the lights I tried to use three-point lighting. I put up three lights evenly around my subject. The image I got was ugly and flat, and the subject, who was coming down a wide walkway, was isolated in an unexplained pool of light. I didn't understand why the image I was getting wasn't the image I wanted. Anyway I didn't have a chance to figure it out because the local police came and put us against the wall, informed us we were tresspassing on private property, then frisked us and asked us to leave. About a week later I was on another shoot, again a night exterior. This time I didn't have any lights, we were using street lights, because it was just some spur-of-the-moment idea to make a movie. I lined up a shot in the viewfinder, with my subject a ways in front of a streetlight, realized it was a good shot, and got ready to shoot it. Suddenly it struck me like a diamond bullet to the forehead -- this was the image I had been looking for. And I realized how to get this image with my own lights. A long hard backlight with just a splash of fill (perhaps another light bounced off a white wall) would have given me what I wanted. And I realized I couldn't have learned this from a book, just like you can't. You have to learn it from experience. I promise you you'll learn something new every time you light a scene. I think you got a lot of responses that you can learn from. Many had a sincere intention to help you, even if you sensed condescention.

[Guest Trevor Swaim]

the only thing that an amateur like myself can add is read, watch and practice. something that has helped me very much is something that i learned from some painter friends, emulation. find a scene in a film that you think looks really good. study it, ask questions about it, and then grab a camera and try to "copy" it. get some friends to run through the scene and keep trying until you are happy with the results. then do it again for a different scene/film. if you do this enough you will shock your self at how much you learn.

 

being as you are 16 I'm sure you cant afford "pro" lights but there are some very good lights for not alot of scratch. britek is one name that comes to mind. you can also put together a beginner light kit with lights from home depot. but your money is better spent on "real" lights like the britek or lowel units as they have accessories made for film production.

 

good luck and please do keep posting.

[Robert Hughes]

OK, it sounds like everybody now understands where David S comes from now, so we can talk a little practical advice.

 

In most books on cinematography, you will hear about the "3 point" lighting style often found in early Hollywood movies. Although actual studio films are much more involved than this, the basic structure of the 3 point light system will help to define your images and raise your work above the level of home movie video so common with new shooters.

 

"3 point" lighting involves - you guessed it - 3 light sources: keylight, backlight and fill:

 

"Key" is the brightest light on your subject, often shining from the front and side of your talent. Imagine your actress sitting by a window during the day - the window is your keylight.

 

"Backlight" lights your talent from behind, providing highlight in the hair, and separates your talent from the background. Your talent, sitting by a window, may have a sunbeam shining through another window behind her, lighting her hair like a halo.

 

"Fill" compensates for contrast and "fills in" the parts of your talent's face and body that aren't getting direct light from key or back lights. Oftentimes a fill light is a reflector board or soft light, placed in front of the talent on the opposite side from the keylight. Your talent with window keylight and sunbeam backlight, may need some fill to soften her features, otherwise you might think she was crazy when you meant her to look dreamy.

 

You don't need a thousand dollar lighting kit to learn lighting; Home Depot clip lights will suffice.

 

Lighting gets much more involved than this of course. But look at your favorite movies (like the new Harry Potter flick, which uses a very traditional lighting style), try to recognize where the key, back and fill lights are in a given scene, and then try to imitate it in your own work.

[David Silverstein]

I think we all appreciate the apology and explanation. There was nothing wrong with your original question; it's just the way you worded it that rubbed some of us the wrong way. But we all know that tone is hard to convey in an internet post. Keep asking more questions.

 

Thank you. Now that im getting the right answers that are helping me understand lighting, I realized some of you took offense to the way I worded my question at first which was not the way I intended it to seem.

 

What I read in my book was the 3 point lighting system. What you guys are telling me (or what I think) is that all lighting depends upon the situation and depends on what you want it to look like. I think now I have an understand of the way lighting is used. I for sure dont know how to light but at least I know what your doing when your doing it.

 

Thank you again.

I guess im now being called.

 

DAVID S.

[David Sweetman]

to "the original David S," as you have called yourself in your signature:

 

See, now this is where you've got to learn. I would take offense if I wasn't such a level-headed guy, as I was most certainly here first, I'm older than you, and I'm more experienced than you (albeit only slightly). But there's no point in my getting offended, and you probably intended it as a joke. However, you must understand how something like that can be taken wrongly. Initially I felt like you had elevated yourself over and above me after I had tried to give you helpful advice. I don't think you intended it that way.

 

-David Sweetman

[Matthew Parnell]

Dave,

 

Not ganging up on you here, but I think what offened most people is ur remarks which sounded like 'you have never directed a film in your life how would you know." You are right, a significant amount, probably the majority of people on this forum have never directed a feature in their lives. However most of them have decicated their lives to discoving the craft of cinematography, the exact thing your are asking for help for.

 

It is great to see you have realised the art of cinematography and you are ready, and obviously by being here and continuing through the storm created, your wanting to learn. I've only just recently discovered this place, and im astounded by what can be learnt from such amazing guys as Mr Mullen, who gives his time to help youngins like us.

 

Keep around dude, there is always help to be found around here.

 

Cheers,

Matt Parnell

[David Silverstein]

to "the original David S," as you have called yourself in your signature:

 

See, now this is where you've got to learn. I would take offense if I wasn't such a level-headed guy, as I was most certainly here first, I'm older than you, and I'm more experienced than you (albeit only slightly). But there's no point in my getting offended, and you probably intended it as a joke. However, you must understand how something like that can be taken wrongly. Initially I felt like you had elevated yourself over and above me after I had tried to give you helpful advice. I don't think you intended it that way.

 

-David Sweetman

 

I didnt mean it like whos better and who was here first I meant who was being called David S. thats all ill change it I didnt mean any harm by it at all... It was more like a joke.

Edited November 27, 2005 by David Silverstein

[David Sweetman]

I didnt mean it like whos better and who was here first I meant who was being called David S. thats all ill change it I didnt mean any harm by it at all... It was more like a joke.

 

well i'm in los angeles, so how about you be the East Coast David S. and I'll be the West Coast David S.?