Another Filmo 70 DR Posting

[Matthew Hall]

Hello to all. . . . , let me introduce myself. I have limited experience with cinematography, having graduated from Brooks Institute of Photography here in Santa Barbara specializing in Industrial/Scientific still photography. I have done this for the past 42 years and now recently retired. I do however have some experience with repairs as I have restored to full operating condition a Revere-Eight Model 40 Movie Camera, a Keystone Model R-8 8mm Projector and recently a Bell & Howell 16mm Filmo Cine-Projector. I also have extensive experience with repairs on the Nikon F/F2/F3 cameras and the Rolleicord/Rolleiflex TLR cameras. Enough about me.

I just signed up for this forum and have taken some time reading all the other posts regarding this camera--in the hopes of reducing redundant questions. This Filmo 70 DR just showed up at a local thrift store today for $24.94. Seemed like a great value as each of the lenses likely cost more than this. I have noticed a couple of peculiarities however about this particular model. Your posts said that some models have a motor attached and were mostly 12 and 24 volt ratings. Seems like the 110/115 volt were not common. #1 oddity is that mine has a 115 volt motor attached. Second oddity is that there is no apparent serial number on this guy. The manual shows it being on the base by the tripod mount but my camera is completely clean with no markings in this area. Could it have been covered with the crinkle paint and not be visible? I opened the door and it has a serial number stamped inside of #17498. I have read that the door and body numbers are supposed to be matching so that must be the number for this camera. Third oddity is that the rotating lens turret has no geared teeth to sync with the viewing lens turret so they turn in unison. As you can see in the image included there does not appear to be any evidence that a geared ring was ever here. Not a huge deal as I can just turn the viewing turret to the correct lens, but I thought the 70 DR model had the two turrets synced. The forth and last oddity is that there does not appear to be a spring in the wind mechanism. The key just turns and turns, apparently not attached to anything. It is locked up in the counter-clockwise direction (as you are supposed to turn to wind it) but just free wheels clockwise. Is the spring just broken off or is it possible this model was only intended to be used in a TV studio and as such only needed the motor winder? The whole thing seems a bit odd to me. Any ideas out there?

Thanks, Matt

Edited November 2 by Matthew Hall

[Jon O'Brien]

Hi Matt, it sounds like the door might be from a later serial number. Don't know about the electric motors. More experienced people will hopefully comment, such as Simon Wyss. I don't own and have never used this model but I do know it's a highly respected camera for the price.

[Simon Wyss]

Almost everything is possible. Number 17498 would be a Filmo from the first half of the twenties. If a body has no number, it can be understood that a special example is present. A spring missing is an other indicator of something peculiar and the 115 Volt motor finally tells I’m an indoor/studio/institute camera. The winding key not turning left must be on purpose. If only the spring was removed or left out, you could still turn the spring core (in wich sits the key) between the stops of the gears visible through a round opening just beneath the centre of the main plate.

The body is obviously older than the lid. Why a DR lid is on remains to be explained.

With a couple photos that show the RH side of the camera where the name plate is and the film compartment I could tell more.

[Matthew Hall]

Thanks Simon. Here are 8 photos of the model. I had to send them in three batches as I couldn't get all 8 to fit within the 500 kB constraint.

A couple of bits of information that might be of help . . .

1. The FPS dial is stuck and will not turn. It is set to 24 fps and has a range of 8 to 64 fps.

2. The crank handle has a hard stop if turned to the left. It is hitting a metal object. However, I need to correct my previous statement about turning it to the right. It does not freewheel but has distinct click stops. There are a total of 12 click stops to complete a 360 degree rotation.

3. Notice the conspicuous absence of a leather handle. Was this intentional (due to being in the way of a tripod) or did it just get worn and was removed?

4. It has no telephoto (75mm) lens on the turret (there is a Taylor-Hobson 1 inch f/1.9 and a Wollensak 17mm f/2.7). If this were indeed an indoor/studio unit that might explain the lack of need for such a lens.

5. The most recent patent listed on the inside of the body is for #1,941,473 for a Centrifugal Speed Governor filed by Albert S. Howell on April 4, 1929. This might help in dating this camera as it obviously could not be from earlier than that, although it could be significantly later if no new patents were filed for this model. The first turret model (C) was released in 1927, but that model only had 3 fps speed options. This one has 7 (8/12/16/24/32/48/64).

Edited November 2 by Matthew Hall

[Matthew Hall]

[Matthew Hall]

[Matthew Hall]

So, while not sure of how to proceed with the insides of this camera, I worked on the areas I have lots of experience with - the optics. I removed both the 1 inch f/1.9 and the 17mm f/2.7 and completely disassembled them last night. I cleaned all the internal elements, re-lubed the helicals and reassembled them. They are now crystal clear and the focus rings turn like butter. I then turned to the viewfinder are as that seemed to be full of debris. I cleaned the viewfinder lenses then worked on the turret and the rear focusing/parallax correction ring and cleaned and lubed that as well. A very clever mechanism. Whenever I get this body fixed at least I now have some good optics to go with it. I am on the hunt for a nice 75mm lens with viewfinder matched lens for the open space on the turret. Looks like you can get them from f/1.9 out to f/4.5 or so, depending on your needs and financial situation.

Edited November 2 by Matthew Hall

[Matthew Hall]

One more possible piece to the puzzle. I noticed a small piece of metal protruding from beneath the winding handle. Photo #1 shows it sticking out as far as it will go. The second photo shows it tucked back under the handle. It just moves back and forth like that, no apparent function. I'm not really sure what it is for, or if it even matters, but you never know which small bit of information may be the one to help crack the case.

[Simon Wyss]

You can pull the winding key out, it should hold in the chromium plated bushing by its snap ring. After removal you will see more. To place the key back give it a smack with heel of hand.

Thanks for the pictures. You have indeed a later DR or an HR, 1960s. The turret got swapped some time or worked on.

The patent numbers say nothing about the date of manufacture. Some patents can have elapsed, know that parts were often made early and kept in chests. The patent numbers were embossed from the beginning, main plates used up over time. Although the best of all amateur cameras Filmo 70 were assembled in long series and at times fast.

Leave the mechanism alone. As long as it works drop in oil and use the camera. These are the oiling points, nr. 7 means the centre of the turret where you pull out a plug.

The speed dial can be stuck. Remove the curved arm for accessing the dial, not hard to disassemble, clean, lubricate, and reassemble. At the same time you will find out whether the governor can be adjusted by simply pushing and pulling the curved arm up and down.

[Matthew Hall]

That's the problem. I don't have a power cord for the motor so I don't know if it works. The camera as it sits will not function as it apparently contains no internal spring, only working with the 115v motor. Do you happen to know the polarity of the 3 prongs in the power input on the motor? Pin #1 is top center, #2 is on the left and #3 is on the right. I could then make something myself.

Upon closer inspection of the power port I noticed this writing on the cover. It states "Cannon" with an arrow pointing to the power input port. Any ideas what this means?

[Simon Wyss]

https://www.aircorpsdepot.com/cannon-connectors/?srsltid=AfmBOormlJFW281_DIOUJyBeMFxyo15HSJtv7SVAVsN1K3eyycRiC6aP

[Matthew Hall]

Got the clip under the wind handle fixed. It had just pulled out of its detent so I pushed it back in and it now sits as it should. The fps counter was really jammed. After removing the curved arm on the inside I noticed a severe scraping of the metal plate where the curved arm moved back and forth. Upon inspection of the screw that holds this arm in place I noticed a problem. The screw should have a 1-2mm stand-off shoulder just under the screw head. As the back of the fps dial is 1-2mm lower than the internal plate of the body, it needs this spacing to keep the curved arm from bending. Somewhere in the past someone removed this screw to work on it and must have lost it. They replaced it with a screw that has no shoulder stand-off, so when tightened it just bent the curved arm down to the back of the fps dial. This bent the arm so severely against the plate that turning the fps dial could not overcome the friction. My solution was to place a small nylon bushing around the screw that sits inside the hole of the curved arm. This gives the correct offset to prevent the arm from getting bent. Now the fps dial can turn smoothly and easily (after lubing the dial and the slot the arm moves up and down in). There is still a little friction between the nylon bushing and the curved arm, so I am on the lookout for the correct screw to solve the problem (the nylon will also eventually wear down and need to periodically be replaced). I have a screw that fit the hole but the stand-off was too large so that the top of the screw stood up too high and would hit the film spool. See the attached photos for a clearer view of this entire issue.

[Simon Wyss]

Well done!

I don’t know the polarity of the plug.

[Steve Switaj]

> It states "Cannon" with an arrow pointing to the power input port. 

ITT/Cannon was the manufacturer. It's actually named after the guy who started the company in the 50's to make this style of connector.

Switchcraft makes a modern version of this part, but all XLR connectors should be intermatable.

Is there a run switch on the camera, or do you think it just runs when power is applied?

Probably only two pins are used. You can figure out which pins are active with a multimeter, you'll probably see some winding resistance (probably a few ohms) between two of the three pins. If there's a run switch you'll have to close the switch.

Polarity doesn't matter with an AC signal, assuming both sides are insulated from the metal shell (wasn't always the case with old power tools) .

One trick for bringing up old AC equipment is to put it in series with a 100 watt tungsten bulb. That way if you have an issue the  worst case current flow will be limited to 1 amp. 

[Matthew Hall]

Steve, as you stated, the polarity does not matter. I cut off the receptacle end of an extension cord and crimped on two inline connectors. I then crimped these just enough to put pressure on the pins when I inserted them into the Cannon connector, which I had disassembled to determine that pins 1 & 2 were being used. Then, while holding the motor in one hand, I plugged the other end of the extension cord into an outlet (having lots of confidence that both sides were insulated from the shell--actually didn't even think about that). In any case, the motor works great and I didn't get zapped. The motor did start to put out a funny smell, but I assume that is because it hasn't been run for 30 or 40 years. Not too bad, just a bit of burning dust like when you fire up your home heater for the first time after summer. It ran very quiet and smoothly with no vibrations felt.

Now for the issue of the trigger. I see no electrical connection on the camera anywhere so the start button isn't part of the circuit to the motor. I can't see the motor being energized but not allowed to drive the camera as that would overheat the motor, possibly causing it to burn up. So how does the trigger work in concert with the motor? All the instruction manuals I have run across only address the internal spring mechanism which could easily be controlled mechanically by the trigger switch. Somebody out there must have used one of these with a motor. Let me hear from you if you read this.

I just purchased a Taylor-Hobson Cosmicar 75mm f/1.9 C-Mount lens along with the appropriate viewfinder lens which should arrive Monday. That will fill the turrets and look better too.

[Matthew Hall]

Found the serial number to my 70 HR body. It was located under the winding handle, even though the instruction manual that came with it stated it was located on the base near the tripod socket.

Body serial #- K17498

Door serial #- 17498

So they are a matched set and not of different vintages as thought. The turret was apparently swapped out at some point in the past, which is why it doesn't have the toothed gear to sync with the viewing lens turret. I just wish I could figure out the internal spring situation. I hate to only be able to use this with the heavy electric motor. The winding crank has a ratcheting mechanism that will not allow it to be turned counter-clockwise, the intended direction for winding the spring. I'm just not sure if the spring is wound tight or if it isn't even in there. The shutter button does not activate the camera so I can't tell. Any ideas would greatly help. Thanks!

[Simon Wyss]

To find out more about the spring take the camera in your hands, lid off. Try to turn the winding key in both directions while observing the pair of gears through the round opening in the main plate. If the gears don’t budge, they might be stuck, pound together. Set speed dial to a low tempo, hold key firmly, and try to push the lower gear, the one nearer the base, inwards along its axis with a pin driver or such. You may want to help it by wiggling the key but do not let it go.

If you can separate the gears and feel force on the key, a healthy spring is in place. Basically, the mechanism should run by spring force when the stop gears are separated.

Edited November 3 by Simon Wyss

[Matthew Hall]

Did what you said and nothing. The lower gear moves vertically on its axis by 1.5 - 2mm with no problem. I can also get the lower gear to turn ever so slightly, just enough to take up the backlash between the gears. So it seems to be loose, but does not move enough on its axis to separate the gear so it can turn. The upper gear will turn ever so slightly as well. However, jiggling they key will produce no movement in either of the gears.

Is the key supposed to be ratcheting as you turn it clockwise? There is one click for every 30 degrees of turn to the key. As soon as it moves 30 degrees there is a click and the key locks into place, preventing it from going back counter-clockwise.

Also, any idea how I am supposed to control the start/top of the camera itself as the shutter button is not connected to the motor as far as I can see. Is there some internal clutch in the motor that allows the motor to spin without driving the camera? I have not yet connected the motor and turned it on for fear the camera is locked up and will just burn out the motor.

[Matthew Hall]

I really hate bothering everyone about this. Is there a service or repair manual for this model in existence?

[Matthew Hall]

Just ran across a posting on this forum from 2006 that states the following:

"I converted a few of the 16mm and a lot of the Eyemos (35mm version) to DC electric motor drive. This required removing the spring completely from the mechanism."

So it sounds like these cameras were never designed to run from BOTH electric motors and an internal spring. It's one or the other. So as this one came with the AC motor attached I can only assume it was used as such and that this particular model contains no internal main spring.

A such, that leaves with with the one remaining question. How you control the start and stop of the camera if the shutter button isn't somehow tied into the motor circuit? Either the camera body or the motor itself has to contain some sort of clutch mechanism to engage/disengage the motor from the main drive gears. Help!!!!!

[Matthew Hall]

Just ran across this from the instruction manual for a Filmo 70 DA/DE/G/H models (usually the manual referenced for the 70 DR as well). These are the instructions for using a synchronous electric motor. There is a paragraph prior to the one below (not included here) which describes the procedure for attaching the motor to get the proper synchronization of the drive shaft. Then it states this:

"The starting button on the camera MUST ALWAYS BE LOCKED DOWN BEFORE THE MOTOR IS STARTED. Use the calibrated control dial (fps dial) to set the camera speed; THIS MUST BE SET AT 24 FPS OR ABOVE FOR SYNCHRONOUS MOTOR. Start and stop the camera with the motor line switch."

So it looks like you turn the camera on and off using the power switch for the motor. Apparently you cannot run the speed at 16 fps or below using the motor. So the camera I have would definitely not be considered a portable model. Bummer!

Guess I will just attach the motor I have according to the instructions above and see what happens. Details to follow . . . . 

[Simon Wyss]

1 hour ago, Matthew Hall said:

converted a few of the 16mm and a lot of the Eyemos (35mm version) to DC electric motor drive. This required removing the spring completely from the mechanism."

So it sounds like these cameras were never designed to run from BOTH electric motors and an internal spring. It's one or the other. So as this one came with the AC motor attached I can only assume it was used as such and that this particular model contains no internal main spring.

A such, that leaves with with the one remaining question. How you control the start and stop of the camera if the shutter button isn't somehow tied into the motor circuit? Either the camera body or the motor itself has to contain some sort of clutch mechanism to engage/disengage the motor from the main drive gears. Help!!!!!

Yeah, relax, I’m here. Let me just lay out how a functional Filmo 70 or Eyemo 71 behaves. From that you can draw your conclusion.

A winding key or crank, have a look at your key to see the ratchet, goes directly into the spring core, a part to which the inner end of the mainspring is connected. The outer end is attached to a bolt that sits between main frame and main plate, its left end can be seen in the upper LH corner. To the LH end of the spring core is attached the upper stop gear. Now if you’d wind the spring and let got the key, it would swoop back at once until the stop given by those gears. In order to hold the energy you are giving in a sling-on spring acts on the spring core or arbor. In one direction it opens lightly, you can turn, in the other direction it clings firmly, the spring is held. The mechanism is driven by the first gear of the train on the spring core, halted by an arm that you push out of the way when pressing the release button. The arm is located in the front. It catches the main group which consists of the claw cams and the shutter.

When you depress the release button and remove your finger slowly it will stay down. By depressing again and lifting quickly the release comes up. The release button locked down a normal Filmo 70 can be turned by hand with a crank in the according bushing, under the spring bulge and a little to the front on the RH outside. One turn of the crank moves 20 frames in either direction. When you turn backwards you are winding the mainspring through the aforementioned sling clutch. Turning forward is possible unlimited through the mentioned slipping clutch. So you can add an electric motor and just let it drive the mechanism and with it the film as much as you desire, the clutch simply slips along.

Your example may have alterations done to it that we don’t know until the mechanism is removed. Please be careful, if you dismantle, there may be a spiral spring present.

 

Excuse me, was absent with mind about the release. You have the push in-pull out release button lock.

Edited November 3 by Simon Wyss

[Matthew Hall]

Thank you for all the information. I connected the motor and made sure the turret was set to the "run" position. I depressed the release button and pushed in the lock down pin. At this point I am supposed to be able to turn the motor using the external hand knob and it should drive the camera. But mine is locked up and will not turn. I plugged in the motor to start it just for a second and got the familiar buzzing noise from an energized motor that cannot turn. Seem like my camera is completely locked up internally. I don't mind removing the main plate for inspection but have read numerous articles regarding the possible "explosive" event that might result from the main spring release (assuming it is wound, or even in there at all). Any suggestions to prevent possible injury?

[Simon Wyss]

See cinetinker, Filmo is similar to Eyemo, although not identical.

https://cinetinker.blogspot.com/2013/06/inside-bell-howell-eyemo.html

[Matthew Hall]

After reading the instructions you sent me I made an attempt to remove the front plate. The turret came off easy, then the front plate was held on with just 4 screws. A soon as I lifted the front plate about 10-20mm the spring mechanism started unwinding. Good thing I had set the speed to 8 fps. It took about 60 sec. to fully unwind so it must have been fully wound up. When it stopped the long tooth on the idler gear was meshed with the main gear as the instructions said would happen.

Upon inspection behind the front plate I immediately noticed there is a black metal plate with a cutout (the shutter?) that spins around. In the area of the cutout some of the metal is bent upward (see last photo). May be nothing, but something has been rubbing against this at some point. If this is, as I suspect the shutter, not good if there is some object causing friction. Any areas of concern or special cleaning or lubrication I should look at before replacing the front plate?

I have already removed a lot of celluloid debris and what I assume used to be emulsion from around the gate. I also cleaned the film rails with 99% isopropyl alcohol. Also cleaned the critical focuser internal glass window. The internal mirror is filthy but it looks like that is accessible from the outside when the front element is removed with a small spanner wrench.

Also, I assume the issue will be cleared when I replaced the front plate and turret? Or will the camera lock up again?

Edited November 3 by Matthew Hall