Differences between LTR Mags and XTR

Jason Rodriguez · July 1, 2004

Hi,

I've got an LTR 54 that I might be using, and am wondering what the difference is between threading an LTR and an XTR. The XTR looks pretty straight forward, but in the XTR manual they mentioned that there's no "twisiting" or whatever in the DX magazines that is in the LTR magazine. I looked inside the LTR mag today and it looked the same as the XTR, but I just want to make sure before I go threading the LTR the same as the XTR that I don't screw something up.

Also is an Angenieux 12-120 a good lens? Never used that lens before, I'm only familiar with Ziess lenses and those are all PL mount, this LTR has Aaton mount.

Sam Wells · July 1, 2004

I'm trying to mentally recreate those mags, it has been awhile but the LTR is about as straightforward as you can get.

Isn't there a pdf on CML website ? Certainly Abel Cine could shoot you one.

Unless the 12-120 is an HEC (T2.1 I think) the 12-120 is really Old School, you can and really should do much better...

-Sam

Jason Rodriguez · July 1, 2004

Yah, I was worried the Angenieux was old, so if that's the case, are we talking about geting a 70's look on everything, even if we're shooting Vision2?

Sam Wells · July 1, 2004

That's only true if it's a 12-120 with sideburns B)

Really Jason, I don't know what to say, old 12-120s flare easily, prone to veiling, soft @ wide aperatures etc etc....

Even the 70's era Zeiss 10-100 T3 should surpass it...

You can get a nice diffused CU with old Ang. but you didn't hear it from me ;)

-Sam

oscar jimenez · July 8, 2004

angenieux 12-120 for 16mm, and if it is an old one, it is really a very soft lens, so soft you dont really want to use it, better get a zeiss 10.100

Mitch Gross · July 10, 2004

The old LTR mags were originally designed so that the pass through roller from the feed to takeup sides contacted the filmstock on the emulsion side. In the XTR mags this roller was flipped so that it contacted the base side instead to prevent rubbing of the emulsion. The telltale sign is that the mag doors on the feed side of the new design are notched in the upper left corner in a way that would be impossible in the old design (it would hit the roller).

Of course you can have the roller modified, as I did on my LTR mags. This should be a part of any proper Super-16 upgrade to the mags, along with different shaped tensioners and sprocket wheels. This is not always the case. But I do know people with the old style LTR mags that were never upgraded and they shoot plenty of highspeed stocks in Super-16 with no problem. Me, I couldn't sleep at night without the upgrades.

Nathan Milford · July 16, 2004

I've found the Ang. can produce acceptable images, but watch the wide end of the lens and its focal tom-foolery. I have one myself for my old Arri SB. It has a distinct 'look.' Call Able and ask for Craig and he could hook you up with a much better lens in an Aaton mount (and he's a super guy). I know for a fact that we have a 10-100 sitting on the shelf right now that isn't being used.

Ol' Jean-Pierre and Aaton lays thier mags out like thus:

D = Super 16mm

C = Standard 16mm

M = Mechanical Drive

X = Magnetic Drive

G = 800'

You know you are looking at a 'C' mag when the slanted roller has its bias to the left when looking at the feed side with the throat pointing to your left. The film is transported to the takeup side via that roller emulsion down which can cause bruising and what not of the s16 negative area. 'D' magazines point the other way to allow for emulsion up takeup.

You know your magazine is machanically driven ('M' Type) when... well it doesn't have any magnets.

You, my friend, probably have either DM or CM magazines. With the older style magazines it is wise to make sure the feed tensions aren't off. They use a wave washer and a leather pad under the core retainer to keep tensions up on that side of the mag. Over time the washer will flatten and need to be adjusted. Newer style mags use three little feet adjusted with set screws and they don't wear as quickly.

Feel free to give me a call. I just started here two weeks ago, but I should be able to satisfy your questions.

Nathan Milford · July 16, 2004

Oh! And I have an LTR Manual PDF I can send you. Just shoot me an e-mail:

nathan(at)ablecineDOTcom

But you can only have the PDR if you can crack my secret e-mail code!

Jayson Crothers · July 16, 2004

Jason, avoid the Ang 12-120 if at all possible; I just wrapped a feature where we HAD to use one (for a host of reasons I'll not go into) - although it certainly has a "look", it's not a "look" I'm thrilled with.

Jason Rodriguez · July 19, 2004

Hey Everybody,

Thanks again for the replies. I will definitely then be staying away from the Ang 12-120, although it's up in the air right now if I'll be using an LTR after all . . .

Either way I know much better now what to watch out for.

Thanks.