fractions of a stop

[Don Bachmeier]

Having started with still and motion film and now primarily digital video and still:

 

I remember when setting an f or T stop within a half stop (5.6/8 split, etc.) or even calling for a 1/3 rd over or under a stop was considered persnickety. A few DPs would ask for 'a needle' over or under. (We would tease them if they were including the shadow from the needle.)

 

With the digital light meters now routinely giving readings in 1/10ths, does anybody really call for it that specifically or do you just use it as a reference to decide which way to fudge within a half or third stop? Do you vary your method between film and digital?

 

A related can-o-worms- I haven't used the latest round of HD cameras (the last was 1st gen. F900). Beside most of the range being in the shadows, has the dynamic range come any closer to negative film? Do you tend to shoot HD with a meter or are the zebras enough for you?

[Stephen Williams]

Having started with still and motion film and now primarily digital video and still:

 

I remember when setting an f or T stop within a half stop (5.6/8 split, etc.) or even calling for a 1/3 rd over or under a stop was considered persnickety. A few DPs would ask for 'a needle' over or under. (We would tease them if they were including the shadow from the needle.)

 

With the digital light meters now routinely giving readings in 1/10ths, does anybody really call for it that specifically or do you just use it as a reference to decide which way to fudge within a half or third stop? Do you vary your method between film and digital?

 

A related can-o-worms- I haven't used the latest round of HD cameras (the last was 1st gen. F900). Beside most of the range being in the shadows, has the dynamic range come any closer to negative film? Do you tend to shoot HD with a meter or are the zebras enough for you?

 

Hi,

 

I knew a famous DoP who did not use a light meter, he gave T stop settings in tenths of s stop!

 

Stephen

[David Sweetman]

I knew a famous DoP who did not use a light meter, he gave T stop settings in tenths of s stop!

Wait - you mean he'd measure it by eye?? That's uncanny.

[Stephen Williams]

Wait - you mean he'd measure it by eye?? That's uncanny.

 

Hi,

 

Yes knew what stop he wanted, if he used a meter he would angle it until the needle hit the stop he wanted! He was nominated for an Oscar more than once (not sure if he won)

 

Stephen

[Chris Pritzlaff]

Hi,

 

Yes knew what stop he wanted, if he used a meter he would angle it until the needle hit the stop he wanted! He was nominated for an Oscar more than once (not sure if he won)

 

Stephen

 

 

who was this?

[EricUlbrich]

interesting lighting by eye huh? I can guarantee you that there was a gaffer in the background with a light meter.

[Stephen Williams]

interesting lighting by eye huh? I can guarantee you that there was a gaffer in the background with a light meter.

 

Hi,

 

I guarantee there was not!

 

You have to remember when he started in the 1930's meters were not that advanced. I can usually guess the exposure within 1/2 stop.

 

Stephen

[Daniel Stigler]

I know more than one DP that can tell the exact stop by eye. One sent me off to take readings so the director and producer would stay calm but he told me what the stop would be before i had the reading and it always matched.

I worked on a show where the director took my DP aside and asked him if i knew what i was doing cause in his eyes i used my tapemeasure far too little. My DP told me and i then started taking psychological focus readings.

 

There's no business like showbusiness.

[John Holland]

Hi,

 

I guarantee there was not!

 

You have to remember when he started in the 1930's meters were not that advanced. I can usually guess the exposure within 1/2 stop.

 

Stephen

Me to Stephen , use light meter just to check hot areas . john .

[Stephen Williams]

who was this?

 

Hi,

 

Douglas Slocombe

 

http://imdb.com/name/nm0005878/

 

Stephen

[Dominic Case]

On the subject of using your eyes, there's a nice story about the early Australian cinematographer Frank Hurley. (He goes from Antarctic exploration in the 1910s to features in the 1930s and 40s.)

 

One time, he had a new assistant. While setting up for a wide shot on location, he told the lad "just stand here by the camera and stare out there at the view. Whatever you do, don't turn away." After a couple of minutes, he said "OK, now look straight at me". He looked at the boy's eyes, checked out how wide his pupils were, and set the aperture on the lens.

 

Or so the story goes.

[timHealy]

Hi,

 

Douglas Slocombe

 

http://imdb.com/name/nm0005878/

 

Stephen

 

 

I sort of have two comments about this topic.

 

One is that after shooting for the amount of time someone like Slocombe has been shooting, it is in the realm of possibilty he would completely be experienced with whatever ASA he was working with and how much light was on a subject no matter if it was from a 1k baby or direct sun.

 

And two, film is so good, or perhaps more accurately has such a great range, that one would have to practically leave a lens cap on to screw it up (from an exposure point of view anyway. However, there are many other ways one can screw up hahaha).

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Best

 

Tim

Edited August 24, 2006 by heel_e

[Stephen Williams]

I sort of have two comments about this topic.

 

One is that after shooting for the amount of time someone like Slocombe has been shooting, it is in the realm of possibilty he would completely be experienced with whatever ASA he was working with and how much light was on a subject no matter if it was from a 1k baby or direct sun.

 

 

Best

 

Tim

 

Hi,

 

For most of his working life he did not have a choice of filmstocks with different ASA's!

 

Stephen

[Brad Grimmett]

Hi,

 

Douglas Slocombe

 

http://imdb.com/name/nm0005878/

 

Stephen

Oh come on! How about someone with some experience!

On a serious note....I've worked with DP's that called stops in tenths. I don't blame them for being specific, but I also don't have any problem with the folks who only work in halves. I guess it depends on what you're style is and what you're shooting.

[Stephen Williams]

Oh come on! How about someone with some experience!

On a serious note....I've worked with DP's that called stops in tenths. I don't blame them for being specific, but I also don't have any problem with the folks who only work in halves. I guess it depends on what you're style is and what you're shooting.

 

Hi,

 

He was over 75 the first time I had the privilege to work with him, I was a motion control operator at the time. He lit the scene without a gaffer. I wanted to take a light meter reading, but did not dare!

 

Stephen

[Leo Anthony Vale]

interesting lighting by eye huh? I can guarantee you that there was a gaffer in the background with a light meter.

 

---I worked with someone who was an army combat photographer in VietNam.

He said that in training they were told that the first item that will break in the field is one's light meter,

thus they had to learn to judge exposure by eye.

 

As for different speed stocks, one judges the base exposure and adjust from that.

 

& when I began shooting 8mm, I didn't have a meter and used the suggested exposure dial on the side of the camera quite successfully.

[timHealy]

Hi,

 

For most of his working life he did not have a choice of filmstocks with different ASA's!

 

Stephen

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I wasn't thinking that they had the options we do today. I was referring to the years men like him were using something like 12 ASA and that's it. I would assume he got use to what 12 ASA film could and could not do. And then one day 25 ASA film came out and they used that for years too. But that was way before my time.

 

Best

 

Tim

[Jason Maeda]

In still photography 1st assistants routinely judge natural light exposures by eye...usually with negative film but also with chrome...although that can get pretty hairy. I can usually get a pretty good exposure that way. The real trick is to guess exposures for a photographer who is running in and out of shade and pointing the lens in all directions, with moving clouds in the sky, and different film speeds, lenses and cameras around his neck...plus you are trying to turn the aperture ring while he's doing all this and he doesn't want to be touched...oh yeah and occasionally you are the only available assistant so you are loading the cameras on the fly and shading the lens from the sun at the same time.

 

With strobes it gets a little tricky but you learn to remember what a certain power setting, from a certain distance with a certain modifier will read.

 

I guess the point is that with lots and lots of practice anything is possible.

 

As far as the original question goes, we read out readings like so "five six eight" means f5.6 and 8/10ths. "eleven three" means f11 3/10ths and so on. In other words, tenths matter.

 

jk :ph34r:

[Leo Anthony Vale]

I remember when setting an f or T stop within a half stop (5.6/8 split, etc.) or even calling for a 1/3 rd over or under a stop was considered persnickety. A few DPs would ask for 'a needle' over or under. (We would tease them if they were including the shadow from the needle.)

 

There really are proper numbers for those 1/2 and 1/3 stop intervals.

Where do you think those f/1.7s, f/2.5s and f3.2s come from?

 

The 1/3 intervals between 4 and 5.6 are 4.5 and 5. the 1/2 stop is 4.7.

Between 5.6 and 8, it's 6.3 and 7 for the 1/3s and 6.6 for the half.

[John Holland]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I wasn't thinking that they had the options we do today. I was referring to the years men like him were using something like 12 ASA and that's it. I would assume he got use to what 12 ASA film could and could not do. And then one day 25 ASA film came out and they used that for years too. But that was way before my time.

 

Best

 

Tim

When Douglas Slocombe shot the 3 Indiana Jones film , he was using the first high speed Kodak stocks for studio sets . 5293, 320 asa , for Raiders. and then what ever replaced that for the other 2. and 50 and 100asa for exteriors . still no meter ! john .

[Don Bachmeier]

There really are proper numbers for those 1/2 and 1/3 stop intervals.

Where do you think those f/1.7s, f/2.5s and f3.2s come from?

 

Yes now. Back then (the late 60s using old stuff from the 40s) there were vast spaces between the markings and the needle could sway if you didnt' hold it steady.

 

In retrospect it was a more organic method used in what we considered hightly precise practice. I'm not sure the meters of the future will display 1/1000ths, but if they do I'll buy one.

 

Maybe long ago, before meters, they could just lick their finger, stick it in the wind, and guess from the rate of evaporation. "Hmm... f8, out of the Northwest".

 

Be well all,

[Leo Anthony Vale]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I wasn't thinking that they had the options we do today. I was referring to the years men like him were using something like 12 ASA and that's it. I would assume he got use to what 12 ASA film could and could not do. And then one day 25 ASA film came out and they used that for years too. But that was way before my time.

 

Tri-X came out in the early fifties. It wasn't the first fast stock. Plus-X was EI80 in the 50s.

There were DuPont and Ilford equivalents.

 

It was the triumph of color Tv and the 'death' of black and white in the late 60s that reduced the choice of stocks to one speed and DPs trying to push it as far as possible.

[Jason Maeda]

just off the top of my head, a good example of looking for a change of f-stop in the tenths:

 

metering the overall ambient falling on the subject's face gives f8 3/10ths. you then add a little on camera flash fill light (a "doinker" we call it - i think it refers to the imaginary sound the it makes) over the camera and if from the same place you now get an f8 4/10ths or 5/10ths you've maybe got a nice little fill in some situations.

 

jk :ph34r:

[Sam Wells]

As far as the original question goes, we read out readings like so "five six eight" means f5.6 and 8/10ths. "eleven three" means f11 3/10ths and so on. In other words, tenths matter.

 

jk :ph34r:

 

But personally I don't like this; "five six eight" is way more of an 8 5.6 than a 5.6 ----

 

It's actually one reason I bought the Sekonic digital meters I have, I can look at the semi circle rather than read the tenths.

 

But now it seems Sekonic has abandoned that...

 

-Sam

[Hal Smith]

It drives me batty that we express "analog" f-stop fine steps in thirds, and the meter manufacturers divvy a digital stop up into tenths. Ninths or twelfths would had made a lot more sense, that way when you were reading exactly 2-1/3 stops analog, the digital would read out 2-3 assuming ninths or 2-4 assuming twelfths. As it is my Spectra IV-a reads out either 2-.3 or 2-.4 when the exposure required is exactly 2-1/3 stops. Whether it's reporting .3 or .4 is absolutely trivial 99.9% of the time, it just aggravates me that no-one thought it through in the beginning as digital meters were being developed.

 

When Spectra hires me to redesign the ranging on their IV-a (don't hold your breath), I'll opt for twelfths, that way halfway between f2 and f2-1/3 would read out as 2-2, halfway between 2-2/3 and f4 would read 2-10, and so on.