cine lifestyle

[Ryley Grunenwald]

Hey,

 

I'm wanting a career in cine and it looks like the kind of lifestyle I want: constantly changing, challenging, requiring hard work, technical skills, creativity and often meeting new people and seeing new places.

 

The main negative thing I have heard from people who've been in the film industry for a while is that relationships beyond the set are a joke and a decent family life is almost unheard of. Apparently this is mainly because DOPs are away for months at a time and the spouse doesn't take too kindly to that or the strange hours.

 

Is there anyone out there who can say that they're happy with the state of their career and their romantic relationship/marriage/family? or is it a case of choosing between the two?

 

Can we be successful at both?

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

I dunno, if you're doing well enough to be so busy you have no life, you're doing so well it hardly matters!

 

Phil

[Mitch Gross]

Well it does matter and it's something that requires constant attetion. This coming from a guy with a four year old marriage and a four month old baby girl. Even when I'm shooting i town often have to get up so early and need to go to sleep almst as soon as I walk back in the door, so it's important to make phone calls home during lunch or other breaks. If there's a chance of my baby girl being awake at any point while I'm at home then I make that extra effort to be with her, even if it's just a few minutes each day. The same goes for my wife but at least I can talk to her on the phone. On the day off even if I'm exhausted and just want to recharge we usually go out for a casual lunch just so we can have some low-pressure face time with each other.

 

Out of town is a little harder but again just takes some effort. Thank goodness for the cell phone and the internet! It's so much easier to stay in touch. Numerous phone calls each day and some email notes. There's always time to squeeze these in, even if the calls last under a minute they can mean a lot to both parties. I just finished up a feature that was on location several hours from home and I made it my business to arrange a rental car so that I could drive home on my day off. I've done out of town jobs that were airline trips away so that becomes impractical, but then you arrange for the significant others to come visit you if possible. And when that job is done one better stick at home for a little bit.

 

Certainly our work makes having a stabile relationship and family life a little harder, but it's certainly not impossible and is simply something that one has to proactively work at. It's the lazy relationships that falter. But making movies and having a life should not be impossible to coexist.

[Ryley Grunenwald]

Thanks Mitch,

 

That sounds so hardcore but it's really awesome you've made your mind up to be successful at both. As a woman, I realize that I just may have to give the job a rest for a few years when I eventually have kids - it's a tough one. But having not come from the most Brady bunch of families, it's one of my priorites to have a great one...Thanks for giving me hope that it's possible (and for the tips ;) ).Good luck.

[Mitch Gross]

Don't ever let being a woman stop you in anything. You can choose to do what you wish, but it is your choice. My wife has worked four production jobs since giving birth in April. She just has to choose the types of jobs she is comfortable working.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

I always thought that "Be Female" was probably one of the top three most important things for success in film. Anything that makes you unusual has got to be good.

 

Phil

[John Pytlak RIP]

At Kodak, "being female" is not that unusual. Many of the Kodak scientists and engineers working on motion picture products are female. This includes the leader of film product development, one of the inventors of "2-electron sensitization" and several group leaders. A Kodak scientist was the first female member elected as a "Fellow" of the SMPTE. B)

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, I'm sure there are still some difficulties in getting work as a female DP (as opposed to a female AC) a top-level job that traditionally has been held by males. You look on the typical film set and it's still the classic divisions: a male (usually white) DP, Gaffer, Key Grip, director, AD, transpo captain; female script supervisors, hair & make-up, wardrobe, craft services, etc. I run into a lot of female producers though. AD departments and PA's are certainly a mixture these days, although I can't tell if a male AD who surrounds himself with a female staff is enlightened or just likes working with women.

 

In 27 features, I've only worked with one female production mixer, maybe three 1st AD's, one Gaffer.

 

It's changing -- certainly the crews are mixed these days, which suggests that the keys will be someday as well, given enough time. But I think you can talk to some female DP's and be laughed at for expressing the notion that it gives them an edge in getting hired except on certain occasions.

[David Mullen ASC]

I've been with my wife for twenty years now, so certainly long-term relationships are possible. I'm sure not having kids to deal with (or to be more accurate, to stick her with dealing with while I go off and shoot) has helped reduce possible tension.

 

There seems to be an awfully high divorce rate among crews though. I think you do have to make an extra effort to not take your spouse for granted and to make up the time lost somehow. But you also have to marry the right person!

 

I was just away for five months, the longest away-from-home job to date, and I felt guilty the whole time leaving my wife to deal with taking care of the house, dogs, and bills, while working full-time as well. Everything being offered to me this year is out-of-town, so I have to watch that, perhaps even turn something down.

 

I remember when Owen Roizman stopped doing features for five years in the 1980's so he could be home more with his family and actually see his kids growing up.

[Ryley Grunenwald]

Thanks for your insight.

 

Yes, I have to admit - I don't see many women in the camera departments...I'm not sure if that is because of discrimination or maybe because most women don't get a thrill out of building a camera, and carrying sandbags. It has lead to some interesting moments. Usually the big grips will laugh their heads off when I arrive on set and say "no, I'm not in wardrobe...I've been hired as a camera assistant" ect. And then the DP looks a bit nervous letting me hold the camera...but maybe because I look about 15 at 5 ft 2 inches and 50kg hee hee.

 

And then there are the men on set who aren't quite sure what to do when they see me carrying the camera on its head and risers. Most are gentlemen and offer to help me...in which case I have to smile sweetly and say "no, thank you."

 

Some DP's have even told me they would feel uncomfortable working with me (as a woman) because they would feel guilty shouting at me if I did something too slow ect...they said they knew they could scream and swear at their male assistants without worrying if they they had hurt their feelings. I thought that was quite interesting.

 

I've seen that my fellow male camera department workers certainly have the upper hand when it comes to strength and unfortunately that's nature. Yes, I will carry anything...but I might not be able to do it as fast. Luckily there is no natural superiority when it comes to problem solving, a good eye and creativity. These I can constntly develop and hopefully one day I will not be seen as inferior because I can't carry a dolly without straining.

 

It is good to know you've been married for so long. Obviously it is possible. I am probably getting married next year so I have been revaluating my priorities.I absolutely love being on set and working hard. Cine will always be my passion. However, after my family's dodgy track record, I don't want my future family to take a back seat to my job. So I may pull an Owen Roizman stunt in about 10 years :D

 

I used to think that if I wanted to be a brilliant cinematographer I would have to sacrifice stable relationships / social life beyond the crew / lunch at grandma's...

 

But maybe a balanced life will give us a better understanding of humanity and the stories we live to tell.

[Brad Grimmett]

Some DP's have even told me they would feel uncomfortable working with me (as a woman) because they would feel guilty shouting at me if I did something too slow ect...they said they knew they could scream and swear at their male assistants without worrying if they they had hurt their feelings. I thought that was quite interesting.

What's even more interesting is that they can scream and swear at anyone on their crew and think that it's OK. Bad behavior is bad behavior. A person's sex should have nothing to do with it.

[Ryley Grunenwald]

Yeah,

 

I totally agree.

[GregIrwin]

Thanks for your insight.

 

Yes, I have to admit - I don't see many women in the camera departments...

I don't think that's true. Here in Los Angeles, there are numerous women in the camera department and that increases every year. I personally had a female 2nd AC for 17 years - until she became a full-time mom.

[Riku Naskali]

Speaking of our profession and life, I really haven't even felt the need for any life outside cinematography since I became interested in it. That really worries me :huh:

[Adam Frisch FSF]

It is hard. I hope to find a female DP or gaffer someday that I can get together with!

That way we can have it both ways.

 

No, seriously. But my job is such a big part of my interest, my being, that sometimes

I've struggled in the past with relationships where the other has had a regular 9 to 5

job in a completely different field. It's such a strange business and it can be hard for

people with regular jobs to cope with the on-demand-packed-suitcase and at-a-moments

-notice travels and long days.

 

I've also encountered this very human reaction: because many of us love what we

do so much, there can sometimes be jealousy from the other partner who perhaps isn't

as passionate about her/his job. It's like cinematography is a second mistress. It's

a fully understandable reaction, if you think about it. That's why it's important to find

someone who is either as passionate about what they do, or absolutely content with

NOT having a passion.

 

As for women in the business: I've worked with quite a few female AC's and 2nd AC's and

they've all been great. In fact, I prefer to have women in the department because it

makes the set less crude and "laddish" in jargon. As for lifting heavy I find that a moot

point. Sure a 535 with a 25-250mm and everything on is heavy, but you don't have to

lift it in one piece, do you? Most women are more than strong enough to handle anything

thrown at them.

[Jayson Crothers]

It is hard. I hope to find a female DP or gaffer someday that I can get together with!

That way we can have it both ways.

 

I've also encountered this very human reaction: because many of us love what we

do so much, there can sometimes be jealousy from the other partner who perhaps isn't

as passionate about her/his job. It's like cinematography is a second mistress. It's

a fully understandable reaction, if you think about it. That's why it's important to find

someone who is either as passionate about what they do, or absolutely content with

NOT having a passion.

Adam, how very true about the second mistress aspect! Thanks for explaining it so well. :)

 

As for dating another cinematographer/gaffer...................don't! My former girlfriend was a cinematographer and we both learned to avoid mixing business and pleasure. The trouble with that scenario is that one of you will inevitably be more successful than the other at some point, and with time that begins to breed jealously and frustrations. It's even tougher to find yourself getting called for an interview that you know your partner was also called for - do you pass on the interview, do you take it and risk getting the job, or perhaps interview and THEY get the job? It CAN work I suppose, but it's a helluva lot of work.

 

Maybe we should all date office PA's................... :D

[Eric Steelberg ASC]

In LA, I too have worked with some very good female ACs. It's funny, but I actually prefer it to the males because I've found that they're usually more gung-ho, meticulous, and wiiling to admit when they've made a mistake. No joke. In Vancouver I've even worked with a female Best Boy...er.. Girl.

 

I've been married for just over a year and my wife is having our first baby in about 6 weeks if everything is on time. This year has been hard because I've spent more time away from home than ever before which was especially hard for the both of us since she was going throught the hardest times of her pregnancy. The last time I was gone though, I was in Barcelona and I had just purchased an iSight for my Mac so I could video conference with her at night from the hotel room. It made so much of a difference. I imagine it will help when I'm gone in the future and am able to see my son as well.

 

We frequently talk about the fact that no relationships in the business seem to last and we don't want to become another statistic. The biggest thing for my wife hasn't been having me away, but the not knowing of when the next job is going to be. As DPs, we are constantly loosing our jobs and having to get new work and that can be stressful on a relationship where you are providing most of the income. You just have to work at it together to maintain a reasonable lifestyle.

 

I personally am addicted to this lifestyle. I can't imagine doing anything else. It embodies everything I love (travelling, photography, meeting new people, working at a different place every day) and only one thing I dislike (waking up early). If you can stick with it for a while (years) while you're building your career, you will be rewarded.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

I think that's exactly the problem - there isn't necessarily any reward, of every 100 people who want to do that kind of work, I'd doubt more than one or two ever make it. I think anyone considering it should go into it knowing that it'll almost certainly be an expensive waste of three years finding out you aren't good enough. Thankfully I realised that about myself very quickly and have never pursued the really high level stuff because I know I'm not capable of it, but many wide-eyed school leavers could really screw their lives up with all these "you will be rewarded" promises. The fact is you almost certainly won't be.

 

Phil

[Eric Steelberg ASC]

Ahhh, Phil. Always the pessimist. ;)

[Morgan Peline]

If you put psychological obstacles in front of yourself right from the start...naturally, you will never succeed because you have created a self-fulfiling prophecy of failure and disappointment.

 

I'd rather try my hardest to get there and maybe fail in the end, than never try at all...

[Phil Rhodes]

Tell me I'm wrong.

[Eric Steelberg ASC]

Tell me I'm wrong.

I agree with Morgan. But you also have to realize going into it how long it is going to take you to learn your craft to be good enough to make a living off of it.

[Morgan Peline]

With all due respect, you are definitely wrong...yes, not everyone makes it in the end...but look at the members of this forum with whom you have been having discussions - some are just starting out with big dreams for the future whilst others are now fully fledged working 'DPs' who make a living in what used to be a dream. They all probably got there by a lot of perseverence and also quite a few disappointments but they kept trying. For me that is proof that with a bit of talent and a lot of hard work, it is possible to work as a DP. Someone has to shoot all those films on cable...

 

And to be frank I live by my Dad's old adage: 'It's not what you know, it's who you know...'

 

It's not the most talented who always end up making a living out of it, it's the ones who persevere, make friends and develop what talent they have. If you don't even try, how do you know if you've got what it takes?

 

I'm sure I should add the old cliche about having to be at the starting block to begin with, in order to give yourself the chance of winning the race. Probably make a good movie...oh, that's been done before! ;)

[Wendell_Greene]

A couple of years ago I met Lazlo Kovacs, ASC at a seminar and had the pleasure of talking with him about his work. When the subject of how hard it was to make it as a professional cinematographer came up he looked me right in the eyes and said, "I had a lot of friends who were better cinematographers than I am, but eventually they all quit. I wasn't the most talented cinematographer, I was just the one who wouldn't give up!"

 

Here was a guy who when he came to the USA along with Vilmos Zsigmond, ASC, couldn't even speak the language, and when he walked into the union offices and said he wanted to be a cameraman they laughed in his face.

 

Roy H. Wagner, ASC told me the same thing, about being laughed at by older cinematographers when he started out, "Wendell if I can make it as a cinematographer, so can you! " I really don't think these professionals are pulling my chain. It would be much easier for them not to say anything at all.

 

Sure it's hard, but why even bother trying if mentally you've consigned yourself to failure? You've already handicapped yourself. BTW Phil, I've been reading your posts for a few years now and you know way too much to think in such pessimistic terms.

 

There are two quotes I try to keep in mind whenever I don't get that gig, or when I start feeling sorry for myself, the first is by the poet Maya Angelou

 

She said, "Although you may suffer defeats, you must not become defeated!"

 

And the second is from Gattaca when the genetically "superior" brother Anton couldn't figure out why the inferior Vincent always beat him when they raced:

 

"You want to know how I did it? This is how I did it Anton: I never saved anything for the swim back."

 

Hard work, perseverance, dedication to learning your craft and yes, making the right contacts will all pay off one day soon.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> Hard work, perseverance, dedication to learning your craft and yes, making the

> right contacts will all pay off one day soon.

 

I hope you'll excuse me, but that's pretty trite. In most cases it won't pay off, the world is not necessarily - or even often - fair, hard work is not always - or even often - rewarded. Life's a shitty place - failure is more frequent than success, and this is true in virtually all fields. I'm not being saying anything new here.

 

Mr. Kovacs story is actually quite interesting from this perspective. The one thing you need to do in order to become a successful feature DP is to go to the US, and in order to do that you simply need an enormous heap of money.

 

Phil