Techniscope and 3 Perf & ARRI BLIMP

[James Visiano]

Hello all, I am a long-time reader and first-time poster, this is by far the most informative discussion panel about cinematograpahy on the net and you have all taught me alot. I have two questions that I will place in the same post even though they have no relation (to save some space, I think).

 

 

From what I have read so far about these two mediums, both require an optical printer since films are released in 4 Perf. But what if the film is being made for the video market, using telecine, I transfer the footage to a mini-dv, edit, and export onto a DVD; is another process required when using telecine on film shot in 2 or 3 Perf?

 

I am uncertain as to how a crystal motor can be attached to the bottom of a Arriflex IIC camera and still be able to fit inside on of those blimps. Is there a certain blimp model that allows for such a configuration, or is a certain crystal motor to be used? I watched Schizopolis and was impressed by what a IIC in a blimp can do using Cooke Speed Panchro lenses. Also, I once read that Garrett Brown constructed a barney for this camera that was only 5 pounds and it silenced the camera completely, does anyone know the materials he used to construct that barney?

[David Mullen ASC]

As long as the telecine can handle 2-perf or 3-perf (most Spirits can, for example), there should be no problem as long as you understand the aspect ratio issues.

 

But if the product is for the home video market, you may find that Mini-DV may not be good enough as a mastering format for making dubs, especially for both NTSC and PAL markets. It's also a bit of a waste to shoot in 35mm and then finish the movie to Mini-DV.

[John Sprung]

In TV, we shoot 3 perf and telecine to 24p for post. It's very common, and would work fine for DVD. Two perf stuff is kinda scarce these days, and probably a lot more trouble than it's worth. Theoretically it should be fairly easy to program a Spirit for two perf, but I've never done it. Be sure to ask your telecine facility first to make sure they can do it. Mini-DV would be fine for offline editing, but even in two perf you should go back to HD for online.

 

The IIC magnesium blimps than I used to use had room for the flat gearbox base that stands the motor up vertically upside down on the right hand side of the camera, where it's kinda in the way of the inching knob. About 35 years ago, I assisted on a shoot where they had a two perf IIC in a fiberglass blimp that worked the same way, but it may have been home made.

 

 

-- J.S.

[Christian Appelt]

There are two Arri blimps, one called model 120, one model 300. Numbers are(referring to the maximum film load in meters, so the smaller one will take the usual 400ft. mag while the big one does not use a camera mounted magazine but a Mitchell (or was it Bell&Howell?) 1000ft. mag with its own torque motor. That way the camera had not to move all the heavy load.

 

There were different flatbase motors for blimp use. There is no problem in using the Arri blimps, but remember that with the model 120 you will have to open and reload every four and a half minutes, so your operator should be fast and know his stuff.

 

If you intend to use long zoom lenses or anamorphic lenses, you need the special Arri extension window part that gives you more room in front. While all this is no problem in studio work, it can be a pain in the neck outside. Rainer Werner Fassbinder adapted some of his films to shooting with the 120 blimp, he just staged 4 minute shots... :rolleyes:

[Paul Bruening]

I have a IIB. It is not too dificult to build a barney out of ABS plastic sheet material with angle aluminum for the joins. It will require more room for foam padding since the Arri blimps incorporate both lead and foam for silencing (which makes the blimp heavy as hell!). You join the aluminum and ABS with pop rivets reinforced by washers, caulking as you go. Hatches are hinged using pop rivets or bolts/nuts and fastened with overcenter catches. Clear ABS can be glue in with ABS cement on both sides of the opaque ABS (two layers deflect sound better than one) to provide windows. Two layers of optical glass finishes off the TTL noise problem. All of the fittings can be obtained at you local hardware store. The plastic is easily purchased in sheets in any city in the US. This is a handy approach since the Arri blimps can't fit a Tobin motor. The setback to this is the lack of a follow focus rig which the Arri blimps have built right in. However, if you're building your own blimp then you may be able to build it around the Chroziel or Arri FF and extend the pulling shafts out of the blimp.

 

Just a thought,

Paul Bruening

pbruenin@yahoo.com

[James Visiano]

Thanks for the post Paul. Can you post a picture of the blimp? How much would the blimp cost to make? How much time does it take to construct?

[John Sprung]

you may be able to build it around the Chroziel or Arri FF and extend the pulling shafts out of the blimp.

Better yet, go motorized. It's easier to pass wires thru the "sound barrier", and it'll also leak less noise.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Paul Bruening]

I wish I had a pic for the 2B. I'm modifying an arri blimp for that one. The one I built was for a 16s and that was many years ago. I don't even know where that thing ended up since I built it for the University of Mississippi. It was probably thrown in the dumpster along with all the 16mm cameras.

[GeorgeSelinsky]

There is a fiberglass blimp out there for the Arri IIc, made by Cine 60. I was interested in getting one for my own IIc, but it's a tough find on ebay. I would consider building my own blimp, but I seem not to have the time now :(

 

I'm also shooting with Cooke Speed Panchro's. They're okay, but fair warning - they FLARE like HELL. Be sure you get a matched set, too, they can be variable in both color tint and even contrast I've found.

 

Do not master to mini DV. BIG MISTAKE. Mini DV is fine for offline, as someone here suggested, but the moment you recompress, be that going to Digibeta or doing any correction on it, welcome the cinderblock artifacts. I know, I am using mini DV dailies from 35mm right now.

 

If you want to go the route of supervised and corrected dailies, you can have it transferred to Digibeta (most places prefer that anyway since they have better control over the Digibeta decks) then dub down to mini DV for the offline so you can do it cheaply w/o renting a digibeta deck. Then you can reassemble your Digibeta master in an online suite using your EDL. Be sure you work out any complications with mini DV timecode.

 

- G.

[Paul Bruening]

Thanks for the reply George,

 

I'm looking into doing 2-4K scans myself. I don't know the details yet but it goes something like this: Using still photo negative scanners (a bank of about 6 or so driven by cheaper Dell computers) I hope I can scan all my cam negs onto computer and use Photoshop macros to manage files. The process should take quite a few months to complete but if I scan scenes and edit them as I go, then those months aren't unproductive. Turd polishing the sound tracks is so time consuming that I think my edit rate and scan rates will be roughly equal. 2K scans will use up 6 200GB HDs. At a six to one shooting ratio that goes up to 36 HDs. At 150 bucks each my storage costs will be $5,400. With computers and scanners that adds $6,000. $11,400 seems like a lot of cheese but every production I do divides that investment. Compared to lab costs and transfer problems, it doesn't seem all that expensive. I still have to work out film registration and batch processing issues in the scanners but that doesn't seem too great a hurdle. How crazy does this idea sound to you?

 

Thanks,

Paul Bruening

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Crazy but potentially workable, if you figure out the registration issue. Doing this sort of thing is much spoken of but I've never known anyone actually get around to doing it. You may end up looking for a scanner that will scan out to the sprocket holes, so you can haul it into your favourite effects package and do an image-tracker based stabilisation. Not ideal, but workable.

 

The only thing is, what're you going to do about getting it back out to film? That's never going to be cheap, although there are even homebrew theories of doing that.

 

Phil

[Paul Bruening]

Hey Phil,

 

The Sony UY-S100 scans at 2K, 10 seconds per scan (yielding 12 cine frames per minute) but only 8 bit per channel output. It has its own transport mechanism for long rolls of still film (no holders) which solves my earlier transport issue. It will scan two half frames at a time. I think photoshop or after effects can split these up and file them accurately. Do you know if after effects can stabilize the jitter that may come from non-pin registered transport? My concern is the quality of 2K at 8 bit/channel scans. Are they good enough? What about resampling up to 4K for special effects like compositing? What about shooting in scope and unsqueezing the imqages digitally? Any help would make the project more do-able.

 

Also, what are some of the theories on transferring back to film? Is it simply a matter of high resolution monitor shot frame by frame with a cine camera? If so, I already posses an IBM true flat that displays at 2000-something pixels horizonal.

 

I know that this represents a heck of a lot of questions. I hope you or someone can shed light on each of them.

 

Many thanks,

Paul Bruening

[GeorgeSelinsky]

The home brewn digital intermediate theory yet again I see...

 

I think one of the biggest problems is the scanner mechanism wearing out after many scans. It's better to have the CCD's stay steady and have the movement itself move the film past it. It's basically running a standard camera movement but out of phase, in other words you are "exposing" (scanning) while the film is being advanced to the next frame.

 

This is quite an engineering task, needless to say the quality of some thousand dollar or so scanner isn't going to match a high dollar scanning device that a big team of imaging engineers put together with megabucks behind the research. Yeah, it's true that low volume and the affordability level of all things in the entertainment business drive up the price, but the stuff IS REALLY GOOD, that's why they use it. If the difference was negligable, I think it would be the soundest business advice to start buying cheap scanners in bulk and rigging them in a motion picture setup instead of bothering with twenty thousand dollar phototubes that you have to replace every few years.

 

I've learned one thing, it's lots of fun to engineer and concoct things, I still do it myself and good things can come of that. But some things require so much time and energy, not to mention financial investment, that it's better to simply go with what's out there and channel your energies into negotiating the cheapest rate you can. My primary goal, personally, is to make films and not be a fulltime imaging engineer - something for which I'd need to get the appropriate education for.

 

- G.

[GeorgeSelinsky]

Concerning Arri blimps this might be of interest: http://www.rondexter.com/professional/equi...bout_blimps.htm

[Bob Eckhart]

I was very happy to find this forum re: the Arri sound blimp for the II a-b-c.

 

I recently got hold of one of these, and now know (from this forum :) ) that it's a model 120 with the original wild 120v ac motor/flat base.

 

I'm having concerns about finding a crystal sync motor that will work inside the blimp. Ideally, I'd like to find a motor that could be mounted directly onto the original ARRI flabase/gear drive that came with the blimp, with the crystal/control electronics outside, connected by wire through the electrical port. Does this sound posible, has anyone done it, or could anyone refer me to someone who might be able to do it?

 

If that sounds dicey, can anyone suggest a low-profile, flat base/crystal motor combination that might work inside the blimp? The problems are: 1) making sure the camera/flat base can be mounted at the correct height and position to attach to the external focus ring controls; and 2) inching the mirror shutter back into viewing position. I've seen some solutions that would require opening the blimp to poke something down toward the inching knob on the back of the camera. (Uggh.) I'm told Cinema Products made a flat base/crystal motor combination that will probably fit, and has an inch knob on the front of the base. (Better, but I'm not sure of the height.) The CE IIB-C flatbase looks great, but I suspect it's too thick (high) to work inside the blimp.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts, suggestions or referrals? Also, does anyone know the dimensions of either the Cinema Products flatbase/crystal motor, or the CE version?

 

Thanks so much for the help!

[Mitch Gross]

I believe the CP motor was a standard stalk motor, so you simply used it on the Arri flatbase like an Arri motor. This flatbase was rather thin, maybe a centimeter or two. The CE base and the Tobin base (Tobin Cinema Systems) are much thicker and I don't believe they will align properly inside a 120 blimp.

 

Are you sure you really want to do this anyway? Spend money to build a 100+ pound monster that isn't particularly versatile? It's like investing to rebuild a Model-T car that you plan to drive on the freeway to get to work everyday. It may get you there, but is it the best way to go?

[Bob Eckhart]

I think you're right--I may be better off simply going with a crystal BNCR or similar CP-35R package, which is starting to look pretty economical compared to buying an ARRI IIC pkge with a crystal motor that will fit in the blimp, plus mechanical and electrical modifications.

 

I'm new to 35mm (I've always shot in 16 before), so I'm still learning about the operating characteristics of the various models I'm looking at. Is a fully loaded, rolling BNCR quiet enough to shoot sync sound on set or location? How would it compare noise-wise to a CP16R or an ARRI 16BL? Any thoughts on a 35mm novice (w/16 experience) going this route for a combination location/sound stage show?

 

Thanks so much for your help--it's HUGELY appreciated!

[Tellef Johnson]

Hello,

I have a Cine 60 blimp (of "Clockwork Orange" and "Godfather Pt II" fame) with my 2C. The blimp works wonders outdoors and in noiser interiors, but for studio work or smaller locations I used a barney (hunting parka) to render it absolutely silent.

 

Inside the blimp the IIC rests on a Cinema Products flatbase with the motor reoriented to the right of the cam on the flatbase (upright). The camera (now free of the handgrip motor directly underneath it rises 1 5/8 inches off the ground on the flatbase). There is also a Cine 60 flatbase that has the exact same specifications as the CP one; both can be found on Ebay for a reasonable price, but they are sought after items (although I'm not sure totally why unless you've got the Cine 60 blimp -- maybe for cosmetic purposes?).

 

Regarding the Arri 120 blimp, which I've seen but never used, I'm assuming the critter was set up for AC sync before crystal motors were employed. If that is so, is it possible at all to get a crystal motor in there (like the Cine 60 set up)? If you notice pictures of Stan Kubrick on the "Clockwork" set, he's using both 120 and the Cine 60 blimp and sharing the A/C motor with both. That's because they used a sync cable to record sound, therefore negating the use of crystal controls (might have been a year or so before the Cinema Products crystal motor came out).

 

Hope this is helpful -- I'd love to know more about how quiet the IIC actually is in one of those larger blimps, and if the AC sync motor options work well. Also, do those follow-focus controls inside really work, and for what lenses? I've talked with several owners of Cine 60 blimps who still can't figure out what the heck lenses the Cine 60 follow focus attachment is geared for -- not Cookes, not Zeiss... maybe Schneider, which I don't have. I'd probably have to look into retrofitting it for the lens of choice.

 

Tellef Johnson

[Bob Eckhart]

Tellef--

Thanks for the info on the Cine 60 blimp and CP flatbases!

 

I'm told that a CP flatbase w/crystal motor, plus a Whitehouse controller (external to the blimp and wired through the electrical port) would be preferred for the ARRI 120, because that base has an inching knob on the camera / blimp door side to get the shutter back into the viewing position. I've never seen one, so can you confirm?

 

I think that at 1 5/8" high, a CP base will fit inside the ARRI 120 blimp with the camera in the correct position to engage the lens focus arm mechanism--but I haven't seen one. I'm still not clear what arrangement would have to be made for viewing footage counts; but I do know that getting around to the inch knob on the opposite side of the camera would be difficult and unwieldy, so an accessible control is crucial.

 

The original AC pilot/wild motor and flatbase made for this rig has a knurled top and a mechanism in the blimp to push a rubber roller up against it so that the motor can be turned from the outside--but it's not crystal sync.

 

I've seen a (custom?) crystal sync / low profile flatbase that physically fits inside the blimp, but the jury's still out on what mods would be needed to make it all practical--for example, the crystal speed selector interferes with the blimp's removable rod back to the rear focus knob, so only the front focus could be used (unless the custom base can be modified to move the speed control--I guess there's always a solution....)

 

You make a good point about different lenses and the ARRI 120's focus controls--when we positioned the custom base inside, the arm / plunger kept slipping out of the rabbit ears on a Zeiss lens--but that may have been because everything wasn't locked down in final position.

 

Like you, I'll also need to use a barney on the blimp I've got, since the (barifoil?) foam and lead layers have been removed. It's pretty quiet even so--I'd guestimate that at least 80% of the noise is damped--but it definitely needs a barney for studio work.

 

I still haven't entirely given up hope on mounting a crystal motor onto the existing flatbase, if the correct gear ratios and wiring can be worked out. I'm not sure what I'd have to do to my crystal Nagras and transfer gear to use pilot.

 

If I had all this to do over again, I wouldn't get the ARRI blimp unless it had all the crystal motor issues already worked out. I think it would be far easier to build a custom blimp/barney for a complete, existing, working set up.

 

Bob Eckhart

[Paul Bruening]

Hey Bob,

 

I have a 120 blimp. It is big and heavy but works great. You could probably set off a grenade in the darn thing. I never shoot handheld anyway. I especially love the built in focus pulling rig. I got mine from Visual Products (find through Google). They included a sync AC motor with the package. I have a Tobin but it won't fit without undue modification. Although I have resolved to dismantle the Tobin to find just where it may succesfully be cut down to fit. The issue isn't its hieght (there is room in the bottom of the 120 when shock mount is removed) but the shape of the base. The 120 has enough room to modify the IIB to Super 35. The IIB has to be moved over 2mm to make the focus rig line up.

[Tellef Johnson]

Bob,

 

The Cinema Products flatbase has a little "wheel" that acts as a inching knob. When the flatbase is mounted to your IIB/IIC, it's right under the viewfinder side, which is the side of the camera you're going to have access to when you open the 120 blimp door. Right next to the wheel is a footage counter, this is only on the CP flatbase, not the Cine 60 flatbase.

 

With my Cine 60 blimp, I don't really need to use the wheel on the flatbase -- there is a button on the back of the blimp that allows you to inch the film by the frame (by just pushing slightly). Push in all the way and you'll be going at 24 FPS. There's also a toggle switch on the blimp backside to run camera.

 

So if I understand correctly, with the 120 blimp there is some sort of setup with the current AC motor that allows you to clear the mirror shutter externally, but if you can retrofit that motor to crystal then there is a problem with externally inching the mirror shutter open from outside the blimp? I guess if you have to open the door everytime you finish a shot to see footage counter and advance the knob on the CP flatbase that's fine, but it seems a trifle repetitive. But hey, if it works, it works!

 

Tellef

[John Sprung]

Is a fully loaded, rolling BNCR quiet enough to shoot sync sound on set or location? How would it compare noise-wise to a CP16R or an ARRI 16BL?

The BNCR if it's in good shape is definitely quieter than the 16 cameras or the blimped 2C. It was the first choice for major features from roughly WWII until the 1970's. And it gives you pin registration and 1000 ft. mags. Think of it as a sort of obese Panaflex.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Webster Colcord]

Bob, Tellef, Paul-

 

I just joined this website/ forum yesterday, I'm very glad that I came across it as I've had some of these same questions for years. I bought an Arri IIB package in the 90's, it had been used for stop-motion animation, if you can believe it (it required a capping shutter to do so).

 

It also came with a Cinema Products flatbase sync motor. I don't have it in front of me right now so I may get the details wrong, but the motor that I have does not have a footage counter or an inching knob. It also came with an odd-looking contraption that looks like a wooden pipe with a quarter-inch jack on the end. There is a socket on the flatbase, you plug the "pipe" into the socket and start the motor. It emits a high-pitch whine from a speaker until sync speed is achieved, then it is silent.

 

Shortly after I got the motor/camera package I opened up the flatbase and saw that the belt that connected the motor to the gear for the camera base had deteriorated into a waxy mess. Very strange. I've been searching for a gearbelt ever since, and I'm wondering if anyone knows of a specialist who might be able to help me. I recently took the motor down to Alan Gordon in L.A. (I'm in the S.F. area) but unfortunately they were closed- it was a Saturday, and I haven't gotten back there. I would rather avoid an L.A. camera shop if I can. I'm also going to be purchasing a 24V (or was it 16V- I had better check!) portable power supply one of these days, and I'm looking for 400ft. mags (I've got three 200ft. mags).

 

I'm very tempted to buy one of the Tobin motors (they have an ebay "special" going on right now) but I'm hesitant to do so because I know I will never get it into a blimp. At the same time, the effort and expense to get the blimp may not be worth it- it's a conundrum! So I might be interested in selling the flatbase, or trading it for 400ft. mags.

 

I also have a Mitchell NCR (basically a de-blimped BNCR) with a sync 110 motor, but I use that for animation most of the time.

 

Webster Colcord

www.webstercolcord.com

[Bob Eckhart]

Webster--here's another 35mm topic where the joys (or lack thereof) of the ARRI IIa/b/c blimps are discussed:

 

Shooting a feature with an Arri IIC, Which flatbase motor for an Arri blimp?

 

I've basically come to the conclusion that the mods, compromises, and workarounds needed to get a crystal motor inside the 120 blimp are more trouble and expense than they're worth. I plan to try shooting with the (supplied) original ARRI AC motor, to see how long it'll hold sync, and under what conditions (since I'm shooting with crystal cameras). It's become more of a curiosity project now than a viable alternative to a BNCR or BL.

 

I hope this helps!

 

Bob

[Tellef Johnson]

Webster - sorry for a late reply -

Regarding the "waxy mess" inside your flatbase -- that's because the gear belt is old and

basically has deteriorated, or it pulled apart from old age once it was run.

Visual Products (www.visualproducts.com) is very familiar with this common problem and can

replace the belt. I don't know how much it would cost, maybe $100? Call for an estimate.

As previously mentioned, these Cinema Products/Cine 60 flatbases are gear boxes -- they aren't a motor -- they exist only to reorient the camera's motor (sold seperately from the flatbase) upside down, a configuration only truly necessary when using a blimp. So that leads me to wonder what kind of camera motor is attached to your flatbase. The standard ones used on the CP flatbase are the pistol/handgrip styled motors that without the flatbase attach underneath the camera body (crystal, variable, constant, etc.). Are you speaking of the A/C 110 volt sync motor used with the Arri 120 blimp? Or it could be just an unusual variant that I'm not familiar with.

 

Tellef