Equivalent System 65 set up

[Lance Flores]

Originally posted this in the wrong section, my apologizes ... I'm looking to purchase an equivalent Panavision System 65 camera set up for a digital cinema feature. The feature is a 12 week shoot to begin in April. I need mounts, follow focus, remote ... i.e. everything except for the camera. Looking at using either Mimaya or Hasselblad 70mm lenses. etc. I'd appreciate suggestions for sources.

[David Mullen ASC]

Originally posted this in the wrong section, my apologizes ... I'm looking to purchase an equivalent Panavision System 65 camera set up for a digital cinema feature. The feature is a 12 week shoot to begin in April. I need mounts, follow focus, remote ... i.e. everything except for the camera. Looking at using either Mimaya or Hasselblad 70mm lenses. etc. I'd appreciate suggestions for sources.

 

I don't understand what you mean by "everything but the camera" -- so you have a 65mm camera? What sort of lens mount does it use? What do you mean by a "digital cinema feature"? Are you shooting in 65mm or digitally?

[Lance Flores]

I don't understand what you mean by "everything but the camera" -- so you have a 65mm camera? What sort of lens mount does it use? What do you mean by a "digital cinema feature"? Are you shooting in 65mm or digitally?

 

The images are being captured on a 65mm sensor. We'll begin testing in a couple of weeks using Mimaya lens setup, but I want to make sure I have enough glass for all the cameras we're going to use. The other option is to use the Super PL lens mount and rent lenses from CSC in New York.

[Lance Flores]

<snip>

What sort of lens mount does it use? What do you mean by a "digital cinema feature"? Are you shooting in 65mm or digitally?

 

Sorry .. missed some of your message .. coming down with the flu. Anyway ..

 

The camera will mount a Mimaya lens right now.

The answer is Yes .. I'm shooting 65mm digital 4K 4:4:4.

[Max Jacoby]

Arri have Maxi PL mount lenses for their 765. They are Zeiss/Hasselblad lenses.

 

What camera are you shooting on? The Phantom?

[Lance Flores]

Arri have Maxi PL mount lenses for their 765. They are Zeiss/Hasselblad lenses.

 

What camera are you shooting on? The Phantom?

 

Yes. Have done testing on the Phantom HD. Will begin testing the Phantom 65 in a couple of weeks.

 

Those are excellent lenses. Do you just have one set?

[Max Jacoby]

Eh, well unfortunately I don't have a set, but Arri does. When I was in Munich in September there were about 3 sets lying on the shelves. I am sure there are additional sets with CSC. They only ever build 10 cameras I think. The lenses go from 30mm fisheye to 350mm. Stops vary from T2.1 to T4.2 They also have a 36-210mm T6.3 zoom lens.

[Lance Flores]

Eh, well unfortunately I don't have a set, but Arri does. When I was in Munich in September there were about 3 sets lying on the shelves. I am sure there are additional sets with CSC. They only ever build 10 cameras I think. The lenses go from 30mm fisheye to 350mm. Stops vary from T2.1 to T4.2 They also have a 36-210mm T6.3 zoom lens.

 

That would do it. It's tempting, but I'd hate to keep flying all that glass back and forth between shoots. We're trying to queue up three productions for next year so we're looking at purchasing all the lenses. I'll give them a call Monday. Thanks Max.

[Igor Trajkovski]

What camera are you shooting on?

 

I wander that too...

?

 

 

Regards

 

Igor

[Max Jacoby]

That would do it. It's tempting, but I'd hate to keep flying all that glass back and forth between shoots. We're trying to queue up three productions for next year so we're looking at purchasing all the lenses. I'll give them a call Monday. Thanks Max.

I'm not sure where you are based, but usually you don't have to pay for equipment that travels from one branch of a rental company to another. The lenses should come to New York free of charge, that's part of the service Arri offers.

[K Borowski]

Wait, are you shooting with still or cine lenses? I shoot still photography with a Mamiya RB, so maybe I can give you some info if those are the kind of lenses you are talking about using. One thing I know from the stills world is that digital can get "fringing", weird purple circles on the picture, due to film lenses allowing light to hit the film at an angle, something which seriously confuses a sensor. You'd definitely want to test lenses before you commit to shooting with them, and watch out for flare, shoot with a long matte box, because flare tends to heighten this effect the most.

 

Do you mind telling us why you're shooting with medium format lenses, instead of just 35mm, or have I misread your post? You're a little vague,

[Max Jacoby]

I'd be very wary about using still lenses for motion picture use. On top of the fact that the lenses might not be tele-centric like Karl says, another big issue is focus-pulling. Stills lenses are meant to be focused by hand and do not accept a follow-focus. Arri's Zeiss/Hasselblad lenses are rehoused and although they focus scale isn't as big as modern 35mm primes, they do accept a follow-focus.

[Stephen Williams]

.

 

Do you mind telling us why you're shooting with medium format lenses, instead of just 35mm, or have I misread your post? You're a little vague,

 

Hi,

 

35mm motion picture lenses won't cover 65mm sensor.

 

Stephen

[K Borowski]

Hi,

 

35mm motion picture lenses won't cover 65mm sensor.

 

Stephen

 

They make a 65mm sensor? When did this happen? What is it's resolution?

 

One other thing about Mamiya lenses, again not sure what format you'd be using, but the 6x7 lenses actually have built in iris shutters, so you'd have to lock them open to use them. With the wide angle lenses, there's actually a floating front element that has to be focused, and oh, now that I am thinking clearly, they don't actually have focus rings on them at all. They're mounted on a movable bellows and focused by racking that back and forth.

 

I'm not sure the area of your sensor that you'll be using, but I don't know if the 6x4.5 lenses are big enough to cover it. Your best bet then would be a cine lens, or if you must, an appropriately equipped Hasselblad lens set.

 

One final thing, wouldn't this post best be suited to the HD section?

 

Regards,

 

~Karl Borowski

Edited December 17, 2006 by Karl Borowski

[Lance Flores]

They make a 65mm sensor? When did this happen? What is it's resolution?

 

One other thing about Mamiya lenses, again not sure what format you'd be using, but the 6x7 lenses actually have built in iris shutters, so you'd have to lock them open to use them. With the wide angle lenses, there's actually a floating front element that has to be focused, and oh, now that I am thinking clearly, they don't actually have focus rings on them at all. They're mounted on a movable bellows and focused by racking that back and forth.

 

I'm not sure the area of your sensor that you'll be using, but I don't know if the 6x4.5 lenses are big enough to cover it. Your best bet then would be a cine lens, or if you must, an appropriately equipped Hasselblad lens set.

 

One final thing, wouldn't this post best be suited to the HD section?

 

Regards,

 

~Karl Borowski

 

Karl these are the specs:

 

# 4K (4096 x 2440) resolution

# Up to 125 frames-per-second (fps) frame rate at full resolution

# Adjust frame rate in 1 fps increments

# Shutter speeds as fast as two microseconds (1/500,000 second)

# 14-bit sensor depth (42-bit color)

# 11-stop dynamic range

# ISO 600

 

I've only tested the HD which is their 2K version of the sensor. It uses the same cell layout as the 65. Beginning of January we'll take the Phantom 65 for a test ride to some of the Int./Ext. practical locations and also run it through some performance tests.

[Max Jacoby]

35mm motion picture lenses won't cover 65mm sensor.

The 38-210mm T6.3 Cooke Zoom that Arri has for the 765 is actually a 35mm zoom (18-100mm) with an added relay system that spreads out the image to cover the 65mm format. But you lose over 2 stops in the process. Obviously the lens has to be reingraved with focus and t-stops marks.

[Stephen Williams]

The 38-210mm T6.3 Cooke Zoom that Arri has for the 765 is actually a 35mm zoom (18-100mm) with an added relay system that spreads out the image to cover the 65mm format. But you lose over 2 stops in the process. Obviously the lens has to be reingraved with focus and t-stops marks.

 

Hi Max,

 

Cooke Optics are very clever, most of their zooms come in more than 1 format version.

 

Stephen

[Max Jacoby]

I suggested to Arri that they adapt a faster zoom to 65mm, like the 17-80mm T2.2 Angénieux. You's get a stop a little over T4 out of it, which is still useable when shooting interiors. Unfortunately they won't do that until there is a genuine demand for 65mm.

[chuck colburn]

Originally posted this in the wrong section, my apologizes ... I'm looking to purchase an equivalent Panavision System 65 camera set up for a digital cinema feature. The feature is a 12 week shoot to begin in April. I need mounts, follow focus, remote ... i.e. everything except for the camera. Looking at using either Mimaya or Hasselblad 70mm lenses. etc. I'd appreciate suggestions for sources.

 

The Showscan 65mm lenses are rebarrled medium format lenses ranging in focal lengths from 28 to 600mm and two Cooke zooms with 2x extenders behind them making them (if I remember right) 40-120mm and 50 to 500mm. They all rotate in the proper direction on both the focus and iris rings. These lenses and any misc. support items I think are still availble from Paradisefx.com Max Penner can answer any and all questions regarding large format equipment.

[chuck colburn]

Originally posted this in the wrong section, my apologizes ... I'm looking to purchase an equivalent Panavision System 65 camera set up for a digital cinema feature. The feature is a 12 week shoot to begin in April. I need mounts, follow focus, remote ... i.e. everything except for the camera. Looking at using either Mimaya or Hasselblad 70mm lenses. etc. I'd appreciate suggestions for sources.

 

 

Good afternoon Lance,

 

Perhaps I spoke too soon. I reread your post and now see that you wish to purchase lenses and related equipment. Since we only made one set of lenses for each of the Showscan cameras I don't think Max at paradisefx would want to sell them off. But who knows I could be mistaken. Anyhow Max might be able to steer you toward some other source. As I said coming from a camera/optical tech. background he knows of which he speaks.

Here's their web link if you haven't already looked it up.

 

http://www.paradisefx.com/

 

Good luck on your project, it sounds like the next best thing to film....lol

Seriously I would love to see some footage or at least a frame capture here in this forum. I'm also sure that I'm not alone in that.

 

Chuck Colburn

[Stephen Williams]

Cooke zooms with 2x extenders behind them making them (if I remember right) 40-120mm

 

Hi Chuck,

 

I bought a Cooke 20-60 from Max on Ebay!, it had been marked 40-120 as it was used with a 2x extender.

 

Stephen

[chuck colburn]

Hi Chuck,

 

I bought a Cooke 20-60 from Max on Ebay!, it had been marked 40-120 as it was used with a 2x extender.

 

Stephen

 

Hello Stephen.

 

Sounds like it might be one of the Cookes that I modified for the CP-65 (Showscan) cameras. Was the extender unit attached (screwed onto) to the universal mount threads on the back of the lens? I designed it that way to allow removal of the unit so it could be returned to stock configuration and used on 35mm cameras by attaching the appropiate mount for whatever camera one intended to use it on. The extender unit was used to enlarge the circle of coverage for standard 65mm five perf format. Anyhow the Showscan format, 65mm five perf shot at a standard rate of 60 f.p.s. did not survie for very long so I'm sure you got a lens with few hours of use under it's belt.

We hand picked these zooms for this use to get the best quality to start with before adding on the extenders.

 

Chuck Colburn

[Stephen Williams]

Hello Stephen.

 

Sounds like it might be one of the Cookes that I modified for the CP-65 (Showscan) cameras. Was the extender unit attached (screwed onto) to the universal mount threads on the back of the lens? I designed it that way to allow removal of the unit so it could be returned to stock configuration and used on 35mm cameras by attaching the appropiate mount for whatever camera one intended to use it on. The extender unit was used to enlarge the circle of coverage for standard 65mm five perf format. Anyhow the Showscan format, 65mm five perf shot at a standard rate of 60 f.p.s. did not survie for very long so I'm sure you got a lens with few hours of use under it's belt.

We hand picked these zooms for this use to get the best quality to start with before adding on the extenders.

 

Chuck Colburn

 

Hi Chuck,

 

Max sold 2 x 20-60 Cookes, only 1 (mine) had been remarked 40-120. He sold them without the x 2 converters. Optically it's very sweet, the front coatings are perfect! I am not at home today, but will take off the PL mount to look if I can see any extra holes!

 

Stephen

[chuck colburn]

Hi Chuck,

 

Max sold 2 x 20-60 Cookes, only 1 (mine) had been remarked 40-120. He sold them without the x 2 converters. Optically it's very sweet, the front coatings are perfect! I am not at home today, but will take off the PL mount to look if I can see any extra holes!

 

Stephen

 

Hi Stephen,

 

No holes should be found. If I remember right the Cooke zooms have a base ring made of steel that a knurled or sloted ring screwed on to. This ring mounted a tube that the various lens mounts ( pl etc. ) attached to. As I said I wanted to leave the basic lens in stock form to allow for different uses. Even then in the late eightes and early nineties these lenses were awfully expensive 20k plus as I recall. I'm glad your happy with the glass and remember to keep the lens cap on when not shooting and no cleaning the front element with your shirt tail.

 

Chuck

[Lance Flores]

Good afternoon Lance,

 

Perhaps I spoke too soon. <snip> Anyhow Max might be able to steer you toward some other source. As I said coming from a camera/optical tech. background he knows of which he speaks.

Here's their web link if you haven't already looked it up.

 

http://www.paradisefx.com/

 

Good luck on your project, it sounds like the next best thing to film....lol

Seriously I would love to see some footage or at least a frame capture here in this forum. I'm also sure that I'm not alone in that.

 

Chuck Colburn

 

Thanks Chuck .. from some of the posts that followed I might give Max a try tomorrow. Had the flu which is why I didn't call today, but thanks.

 

I agreed not to release out first tests .. it didn't matter because I wasn't doing extensive tests anyway. Mostly looking at extremes .. particularly where the highlights blew out - but I'll get some frame grabs for you. We intend to do extensive testing on the 65mm camera. I have some concerns about where I can go with lateral pans for a couple of the street action scenes with that wide format sensor; otherwise, I think the camera will meet my expectations and do a nice job.

 

Maybe .. it may be the next best thing to film .. it depends on your expectations. Certainly there are attributes in which it will excel, and somethings film may do much better, after all, it is a well measured technology which has served us well. The point is to tell the story the best way possible ... within the budget.