16mm Camera help

[Alsace]

Hey, all. I'm new here, and I feel like an idiot in comparison to many of you. Even so, I'd like to start off by saying how great this website is - I stumbled on it by complete accident looking for help with my Kras-3 I recently purchased.

 

To be honest, I've fooled around plenty in the digital realm, and want to 'upgrade' into film. I've done lots of reading about light, how the Kras-3 works, etc., and I'm ready to start shooting. The only problem is, I have no clue what kind of film to buy, if I can load this myself, or if I have to physically take the camera to get the film processed. After looking at Kodak's site, I found this listing of various Kodak 16mm film:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/16mm/pro...0.1.4.5.8&lc=en

 

You can see that it's divided into two sections - reversal and negative. I understand what negative film is, but what about reversal? this is the first time I've ever heard of this, and from what I read on their site, it has to do with the processing?

 

In any case, I want to start shooting asap, but I'm too afraid to risk buying the wrong film, and/or processing it wrong. Processing price isn't an option, so I'm just really looking for the correct combination so that I can load/shoot/process, then see something on a projector with ease.

 

This is possible, no?

 

Please help!

 

Thanks so much,

A

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Reversal is a type of film - well, really it's a type of processing, but there are stocks made for it which you'd have to use or get very odd results - which yeilds a positive image on the camera original. You can project the stuff that comes out of the camera and get a normal-looking image.

 

The way it works - very simplified here - is for you to expose the film as normal, which is then developed but not bleached, so that the unexposed areas still have sensitised emulsion. A process is then applied to remove the developed areas. The film is then reexposed to light, so that the unexposed, undeveloped areas (which are a positive image) are now exposed and can be developed. There's some subtleties around this; it's all on the Kodak site if you're interested.

 

Reversal stocks generally have higher contrast and colour saturation, which can be good, but it makes them difficult to print - you end up with very high contrast. Cross-processing reversal stock - that is, exposing and processing it as negative - gives you very odd but occasionally interesting results, as the stock is set up for the rather strange reversal process. Colour shifts and strange gamma curves are the usual effects (Kodak don't reccomend this as the colour dyes in reversal film won't be properly stabilised by the negative processing chemistry - if you're going to scan or print it, do it soon after development.)

 

Phil

[John Pytlak RIP]

The vast majority of professional motion-picture production today is done using negative films, either B&W or color. Negative films have a lower contrast (gamma) that makes them especially suitable for duplication (printing or digital/video transfer). Their long "straight line" sensitometry gives them exceptional latitude. Today reversal films are used when you want to project the original film without need for printing (e.g., home movies, scientific instrumentation films), or want a different "look".

 

The Kodak website has several on-line publications that discuss film characteristics:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/students...0.1.4.9.6&lc=en

 

http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/.../h1/index.shtml

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h2/

[Alsace]

Thanks for the replies, guys. That helps a great deal - I guess my best bet is to juse use B&W Negative (something like EASTMAN PLUS-X 7231).

 

I have another quick question that's, again, kind of dumb. But - first, where is a good place to buy this type of film online? I was checking out B&H Audio/Video, and all they have is B&W Reversal film.

 

Also, I'm curious as to the format the film comes in. Is it rolled already? I assume that I have to load this film into the circular spools that come with my Kras-3 in total darkness? This seems like the biggest hurdle to master!

 

Thanks so much,

A

[Aaron Tan]

I started shooting on reversal in school.

 

THE PROS: It's good because it comes in 100ft daylight loads which make it easier for loading. And you'll only be able to use 100ft loads in the K3. It's also good because you can project what you've shot without making a print. **I'm not sure if it's cheaper to process negative and print it though.*** So I'm not sure about economical pros... You can get reversal film in B&W and color.

 

THE CONS: You have to expose accurately because of the film's higher contrast. (But it can be a cool and useful effect) The original film positive will be quickly scratched due to running it through the projector and other handling. (Which probably won't matter if you're just shooting for practise but not so good if shooting a film... trust me...) :(

 

GOOD LUCK! :P

[Alsace]

Now when you say 'daylight' loads, that means I can just take the film out and load it in broad daylight? Or, does the light have to be dimmed? I'm also guessing that I have to completely load the film that comes in these Kodak packages onto the Kras-3 spool, right?

 

Thanks for all the help, guys - this place is awesome! Also, Aaron - we share cat avatars! :D

 

At any rate, when you say:

It's also good because you can project what you've shot without making a print.

 

This means that I can, let's say, shoot 100ft of reversal film, then take that film out and put it on a projector?

 

To be honest, the 'scratchy' look is something I'm going for.

 

The film in question that I'm making as a virgin filmmaker is about 5 minutes, and something I'm doing for fun (plus perhaps it will help in my film school pursuit). I have saved money for this purpose (well, not a great deal), and would like the easiest, best looking final product I can master with my Kras-3 and projector.

 

Editing is another question, but I'll post that query in the appropriate forum when the time comes. :)

[Aaron Tan]

Now when you say 'daylight' loads, that means I can just take the film out and load it in broad daylight?  Or, does the light have to be dimmed?

 

Daylight spools protect most of the film from light leaks. However you'll usually lose around the first 5 feet of film throughout the whole loading process. Though the spools protect the film, it isn't good to load the film in any kind of direct or bright light and definately not in the daylight. A dimmed room or under a jacket, anywhere where you can prevent as much light hitting the film as possible. Better to be safe than sorry... I remember being so worried about light leaks that I had my friend lock me in the boot of her car while I loaded the camera. :blink:

 

I'm also guessing that I have to completely load the film that comes in these Kodak packages onto the Kras-3 spool, right?

 

The film comes on a daylight spool which you should be able to clip or attach right into the film chamber of the K3... Then once you've finished shooting the exposed negative will be on another daylight spool which is the takeup spool. Then you just send the whole daylight/takeup spool with the exposed negative to the lab. Remember to unload in as little light as possible.

 

This means that I can, let's say, shoot 100ft of reversal film, then take that film out and put it on a projector?

 

Well you'd still have to get the film processed. Once it's processed you can project it because it is already a positive image.

 

To be honest, the 'scratchy' look is something I'm going for.

 

When I shot my film on reversal, it only got really scratched from rough handling in a Steinbeck (editing machine) and projecting through an old and dirty projector.

 

See if you can get your hands on some old 16mm film in a reasonable length so you can practise loading the K3 until you can do it with your eyes closed... :blink:. I read somewhere in the forum about the K3 losing its registration or something like that because it wasn't loaded properly with the proper size loops... I've never used a K3 so I can't really say for sure...

 

GOOD LUCK!

The cat is my cat, Zepellin! :D

[John Pytlak RIP]

Here is the catalog of Kodak camera films:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products....1.4.18.4&lc=en

 

Many of the films are available on a 100-foot camera spool, so no rewinding/spooling is necessary.

 

Here are the Kodak worldwide sales offices:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/about/ww...d=0.1.4.5&lc=en

 

Many motion picture dealers also stock a selection of Kodak films.

[Aaron Tan]

I forgot to mention student discounts on stocks. Check to see if you qualify for a student discount because it helps a lot.

[Sam Wells]

You can get most negative emulsions in 100' spools also.

 

I like B&W reversal films, I prefer them for 16mm but one should be aware that are designed for projection contrast. I find they look bolder, sharper for a given speed but will not yield the subtle tonal scale in midtones that a B&W negative will.

 

In any case you can shoot some reversal stock as an experiment and look at it, it should give you a very clear idea about how you've exposed your film.

 

Then you can try negative as a comparison etc.

 

You don't have to be locked in the trunk of your car to load the camera, if your girlfriend is really into this I'm sure there are other forums to discuss this in greater detail :lol:

 

-Sam

[Aaron Tan]

You don't have to be locked in the trunk of your car to load the camera, if your girlfriend is really into this I'm sure there are other forums to discuss this in greater detail  :lol:

Yeah, it was really hot in there... Kinda difficult trying to load film when you're all sweaty... :blink:

 

The footage turned out great though! :lol:

[Sam Wells]

Glad to hear it.

 

Sometimes I'll unload a 100' roll in a changing bag if it's a rollout where I want every last possible frame. (Helps to use a lab with "good hygene" here :)

 

Where I'd be extra cautious is Super 16 in 100' spools as any edge fogging will go on picture area.

 

But, I've found that typically you don't have to go nuts (I tend to use my Bolex in "less than optimal" conditions... partly why I bought it..)

 

-Sam

[jasarsenault]

I just finished shooting a lot of kodak b/w neg 7222. Grainy, but I really liked it.

Jason

[Alsace]

Thanks for all your input, guys!

 

Any recommendation for some decent reversal spools? What's the best kind to get? There are different ones on the Kodak site:

 

KODAK 7265 PLUS-X

KODAK 7266 TRI-X

EASTMAN 7276 PLUS-X

EASTMAN 7278 TRI-X

 

I'm really not sure which one to get - if any of you have some experience with these types of films, any recommendation?

[Dominic Case]

7265 and 7266 are the latest versions of plus-x and tri-x. They are manufactured for a very slightly different process than the earlier '76 and '78, but you can process any stock in any process.

 

However you need to check with the lab you are going to use, as the speed of the film (sensitivity to light) differs according to the process.

 

The lab . . . no one has mentioned this bit yet! The film comes in rolls (daylight loading spools) ready to put in your camera - but after exposing it, you need to get it processed. Not many labs handle black and white reversal (and the film is no use to you until it's processsed). John P should have pointed you at Kodak's list of labs, but to save time here it is:-

Kodak's worldwide lab finder

You'll have to look in your region as we don't know where you are.

Check BEFORE you shoot, and ask about prices as well as what stocks they can handle.

[John Pytlak RIP]

Thanks, Dominic. :)

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/...=0.1.4.13&lc=en

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/...=0.1.4.15&lc=en

 

The Kodak directories of labs and transfer houses is based on the information provided by the labs. Any updates are welcome at these websites:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/....1.4.13.4&lc=en

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/....1.4.15.4&lc=en

[Nate Downes]

You know, this reminds me, where do you get the equipment to become a lab? Some friends and I got to discussing the lack of labs here in florida that can process B&W or Super8, so started discussing the possibility of doing it ourselves. Where would one start?

[John Pytlak RIP]

The Kodak website has a list of industry vendors:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/about/in...0.1.4.9.4&lc=en

 

The Association of Cinema and Video Laboratories (ACVL) has a list of links to labs and industry vendors:

 

http://www.acvl.org/acvlinks.htm

 

For processing, the Kodak H-24 Processing Manual is available on-line:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/....4.5.16.8&lc=en

 

But a good place to start would be to talk to your local labs and indicate the business opportunity of providing B&W or Super-8 services. But there must be sufficient business to justify the investment by the lab.