Red update

[Michael Peploe]

Hmmm interesting link to that thread at Reduser.net.

 

JJ Says:

 

"Disrespectful skeptics turn me off. Likely to make the "do not ever sell one to this guy" list. If they turn around quickly, we forgive quickly.

 

Hecklers absolutely make the "never sell this guy no matter what" list.

 

We have just added "we reserve the right to refuse service (or accept reservations) for any reason" to our program.

 

It is nice to be a private company."

 

Ok and how will JJ stop people on the banned list from using a fake name or simply getting a friend to buy the camera for them? I'm sure I'm on the banned list and I could easily order this camera right now. I could just have it shipped to my US address. Sorry but this plan just won't work.

 

Item #2.

 

It appears that Jared Land now works for Red? The guy that runs the DVX forum. Every one should take this into account when using either forum. Some one took a picture of this giant SUV with the RED logo on the back, Jared responds as follows:

 

"heh heh heh. yeah we all got them on our vehicles at Red. Right of Passage.

 

As cool the truck is, the stickers are even more bad-ass.

 

it doesnt really look like it because of the scale.. but that sticker is 20" around.

 

oh.. and no, the truck wasn't bought with reservation money lol... heh heh heh."

 

And:

 

"Nice. I saw Jarred driving around about 2 weeks ago at the end of the 55 freeway. I noticed the logo so I had to get his attention, wave, and pretend I'm important. :D"

 

He says "we got them?" So I assume he works there now. Which is fine of course, people are free to choose their employment. I'm not suggesting there is any thing sinister at work.

 

R,

 

JaRED land/ aka in the past as the angry Zoomforce seems to have gotten the job of viral salesman to the fanboys of RED and glorified Production Assistant to the REd team.

 

Barry Green is the only reason to visit dvxuser. Graeme Nattress is only reason to visit REDuser.

 

If I walk into the booth at NAB the person I would most avoid is Land. I don't want the "used car salesman approach" to my questions.

[Emmanuel Decarpentrie]

And I hate to bring up the same old argument, but how are people gonna handle the post? I'm talking small-time indie filmmakers who can't afford a tri-pod with their new RED One.

 

I guess they won't shoot in 4K at first... They will probably shoot in 720p RGB and edit it on their PC, with whatever NLE they can get their hands on... Again, I don't think it is a worthwile discussion to try to break some people's dreams! We all know many "Redusers" won't be able to afford high quality optics, or quality post-hardware, or... Heck, some of them might even face problems to shell out the USD 20-25k something that will be the strict minimum necessary to start shooting pictures with a Red. But, again: I don't feel this sort of arguments have to be repeated again and again! You're right: some people dream a little too much! So be it! They shall have to face reality eventually and there is NOTHING you and I can do to help them face reality sooner than they will...

 

The problem I have with those arguments is that they always seem to imply the Red company is somehow either guilty of "lying" or "misleading" or, at the very least, not "advertising their product the way they should"... You seem to imply somehow it is Red's responsibility to make sure the end-user has some hardware powerfull enough to edit-post in 4K? Is that what you mean actually?

 

Since day one, I've read so many arguments against Red. Not only on this forum, but on many other (non english speaking) discussion boards and mailing lists accross the internet. And ALL the arguments against Red always come down to one single thing: "They are LYING"! "Red is using misleading communication"! "It is too good to be true, hence it MUST by a bunch of LIES, plain and simple"...

 

Somehow, I don't blame you at all: since the beginning, it really seemed to be "too good to be true". But again: why should we bother? If it turns out to be as good as they said it would, if Red turns out to meet all their "believers" expectations or more, then this is good news for our industry! If not, well too bad for the "believers", for the "Red fans"... But why should a non cutomer even bother for them? Do you feel any sort of responsibility toward the entire community of "redusers" of "redfans"? Do you feel it is your duty to constantly protect them by rehashing the same old arguments: "red is misleading or lying" and "red-fans are naïve"?

 

I don't think I've said anything too inflammatory, just made a joke about people not considering all that they will REALLY need when they start making their movies. Also, the idea of losing sleep over a new camera is kind of silly to me. That's my opinion, I'm standing by it.

 

And you're right to joke about it! But the best jokes are the shortest ones... If the same joke comes over and over again, no one eventually laughs at all... And those kinda jokes eventually turns out to be telling a lot about the "joker" himself ;)

 

I want RED to succeed, and I'm not trying to break anyone's dreams.

 

That's all that really matters as far as I am concerned! :) Let the Red wind blow and we shall see soon enough if this all was a real hurricane or a simple breeze :)

 

Cheers,

[Guest]

And? What is your point exactly? As far as I understand correctly, the few people who are on the "banned list" are people who never trusted a single word that came out of JJ's mouth! So, why would you change your mind all of a sudden? Even if the Red turned out to be as good as it seems to be on paper I don't see why someone who was absolutely certain this whole thing was some kind of an Hoax would even bother to be on the "Black List"...

 

Don't you know there are many alternatives (like... shooting 35mm film, for instance)? Are you feeling distressed to be on that list even though the actual Red prototype hasn't been shown yet... Are you feeling some sort of despair you need already to come up with alternative (and humiliating) plans like thinking about asking a friend of yours to buy the camera on his name?

 

Its just a digital camera! Nothing else... Shooting 35mm film has never the major cost in a production and never will be! Furthermore, by the time the producers and insurance companies will be comfortable enough to accept a full digital workflow for most major productions, there will be many other/newer Red alternatives!

 

So, again, I don't see the point of any professional being bothered to be on JJ's black list!

 

 

Take a Midol buddy. I was simply pointing out the futility and silliness of having a "banned list" as one could easily circumvent this if they wanted to.

 

And yes I'm familiar with 35mm film, having personally shot hundreds of thousands of feet of it.

 

R,

[Emmanuel Decarpentrie]

And yes I'm familiar with 35mm film, having personally shot hundreds of thousands of feet of it.

 

R,

 

 

I was being sarcastic of course! With your credits, I never had a single doubt about the fact you've shot many hundreds of thousands feet of film :)

[Mitch Gross]

Hi,

 

Notable lack of facts in that release! Lots of "We believe" and "I expect" and "we still believe". Some corporate-wall stuff - "we can't tell you...". Well, actually, yes, you can. You're just choosing not to. Don't be dramatic about it.

 

And it's not really a 17 grand camera, is it? "EVF, LCD, drives and rail system will be ready when the cameras are shipping." So it doesn't actually include the EVF? Um. Then it's not really a camera, is it?

 

Speccing out a full Red system will cost you $75,000 by the time you have decent glass. It is not a revolution in anything.

 

Phil

Many manufacturers list prices without a viewfinder, often because there are several models or configurations from which to choose. I have no problem with RED doing this. They always stated that it was a central camera design surrounded by various add-on accessories, and yes, a viewfinder can be considered an accessory. We are working on several accessories for the Vision Research Phantom HD camera right now, including a viewfinder. Often it is the issue of mating someone else's technology with your product. Do you really think that RED is designing a new viewfinder system from whole cloth or partnering with someone else? I can say that I don't know but I have my suspicions, and in either case it certainly qualifies as an accessory to me.

[Guest]

Just out of curiosity does any one know the price for a Red system that would include every thing you'd need to shoot minus the lens?

 

I assume the $17K is not for a turn key system, or is it?

 

R,

[Mitch Gross]

No one knows, because they have not told us yet.

[Dan Goulder]

Just out of curiosity does any one know the price for a Red system that would include every thing you'd need to shoot minus the lens?

 

I assume the $17K is not for a turn key system, or is it?

 

R,

Forget it, Richard. You've been banned. You'll just have to make do with crummy old 35mm.

[Guest]

Forget it, Richard. You've been banned. You'll just have to make do with crummy old 35mm.

 

Drat! I might as well blow that Red Fund I've been amassing then.

 

R,

[Daniel Smith]

I agree that it's mainly the macro elements (acting, set design e.t.c.) that make the movie. Not the shooting format.

 

But if that's the case we might as well screw 35mm film and all shoot on DV.

 

I think when people are "putting things on hold" e.t.c. for the reasons of not having enough, or good enough technology is because the technology does, make the film in some way. Films shot on HD or 35mm look a lot better than on basic DV and people confuse the DP's skills with this.

 

I'm certain that if films like 'Children of Men' were shot on DV, Emmanuel Lubezki would NOT be nominated for any ASC award.

[Meryem Ersoz]

this is all quite a tempest in a teapot.

 

i have made my living using a pair of $3,000 cameras. i'm upgrading to a pair of RED cameras because i see nothing at this price-point with a comparable feature set. the $3,000 cameras have more than paid for themselves. i'm expecting RED will do the same. mine will be delivered, according to the current time-table in july or august. until then, i'm sure the pair of $3,000 cameras will work just fine. i'm betting the $17,000 cameras will work even better. i'm sure i'm not alone--others are making a similar leap.

 

what's all this BS nonsense about RED users not having any ideas or not making any money or not knowing what to shoot? most of us are not sitting on our tushies waiting around for a camera to arrive that will make our projects great. at least i'm not. i'm shooting, scripting, invoicing projects daily. to quote my daughter, "hello, duh."

 

 

since i formed my company, i've spent $12,000 on trickleware cameras from sony and canon....$17,500 + $12,000 lenses seems like a pretty good investment by comparison.

 

color me a sucker, as long as it's RED.

[Chad Stockfleth]

You seem to imply somehow it is Red's responsibility to make sure the end-user has some hardware powerfull enough to edit-post in 4K? Is that what you mean actually?

 

I never said or implied that. I am making no demands of RED. The people who can afford that sort of workflow can already afford to shoot Genesis or 35.

 

The thing is, everyone seems to talk like this is a poor man's cinema camera capable of shooting 4k (i'm going to catch flak for the "poor man's" bit, but it's a figure of speech) but most people can't Post 4k. If they are shooting 720, there are a lot of options ALREADY AVAILABLE. Where is the Indie revolution in that?

 

ANYWAY, I made a joke...whatever that says about me.

 

It's strange to me what a cause this has become for a lot of people. I'll say it again, I am cheering for RED. What's funny to me is the language used to champion the cause. It comes across as rather "cultish". That's the ONLY thing I am criticizing. Not Jim, not RED.

 

I'm done. Let's talk about real-world working cameras.

[Cesar Rubio]

I think the motion picture industry is something many people accross the world feel attracted too... It is a dream of theirs! And we all know most people won't make it to the "job of their dreams"! That's life! No big deal as far as I am concerned: I certainly don't feel the urge to adopt a condescending tone towards the dreamers! Why? Simply because we're all part of the "dreamers" family, to some extend. And, may I point to you the fact the people who made this industry certainly all were dreamers too!

 

Let those people dream if you please! Or, if you feel the urge, try to kindly, gently, remind them that, indeed, it takes a little more than just a camera, even if it seems "damned good" on paper, to actually make a movie! But to feel the need of insulting them because they keep dreaming anyway... well... I don't think this is the wisest thing you can do... Don't ever try to kill the child that lives in each one of us: that's the best thing life as taught me so far! :)

 

Wow I am impressed with your words Emmanuel! You can't say this any better. I agree with you in this one.

 

I think that Jim Jannard at some extent is like Howard Hughes...trying to do what everybody said was impossible! I believe that dreams are the first step of accomplish something important. I also believe that Jannard will do what he says that he is going to deliver and MORE...in the long run.

 

I wish there were more JJ's in this world....and NO I am not a Fan boy or planning to buy a Red Camera, I don't have the money...but who knows maybe one day!

 

I know that the Dalsa Origin, Arri D20 and Panavision Genesis, are doing at some extent what the Red Camera wants to do...but at what price?...If I cannot afford a Red Camera...forget the before mentioned ones!

 

I like the Spike design...watch out IMAX you wont be the king of 3-D in the future!

 

Thanks,

Cesar Rubio.

 

I

[Troy Warr]

Just out of curiosity does any one know the price for a Red system that would include every thing you'd need to shoot minus the lens?

 

I assume the $17K is not for a turn key system, or is it?

$17,500 is for the camera body, and that's supposedly just the price that current reservation holders will pay (i.e. it will probably go up once they're for sale to the general public).

 

You'll need lenses on top of that - anything from 35mm SLR lenses (with adapter) to PL. The camera body also doesn't include a viewfinder/monitor or recording hardware, but the latter looks to be reasonably priced at around $1000 for 320GB - several hours worth of RAW footage.

 

I believe that they're supposed to announce prices for all of the accessories in about 2 weeks.

 

So, I'd guesstimate anywhere from about $20K for an absolute bare-bones camera with a 35mm SLR lens (e.g. Nikon 50mm f/1.4) to $30K for a decently equipped camera if you own or plan to rent PL or other cine glass.

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

The people who can afford that sort of workflow can already afford to shoot Genesis or 35.

 

NO!

[Emmanuel Decarpentrie]

The people who can afford that sort of workflow can already afford to shoot Genesis or 35.

 

You know, things evolve rather quickly in the digital world. 5 years ago, almost no one could afford an HD-Non Linear Editing workstation. But today, most PCs or MACs are capable of editing HD. And you know what? I bet 5 years from now, everyone will be able to afford some hardware powerfull enough for 4K. Heck, I even believe some of the newly "to-be-announced" "8 cores" Mac Pros, along with a good RAID disk-aray will be powerfull enough to handle 4K! Therefore, as a matter of fact, I believe that many people will be able to afford some "4K workflow" capable hardware, and this is gonna happen sooner rather than later; certainly not 5 years from now.

 

As I said: we're living in the digital age, where things evolve quickly! Maybe a little too fast sometimes :)

 

The thing is, everyone seems to talk like this is a poor man's cinema camera capable of shooting 4k (i'm going to catch flak for the "poor man's" bit, but it's a figure of speech) but most people can't Post 4k. If they are shooting 720, there are a lot of options ALREADY AVAILABLE. Where is the Indie revolution in that?

 

Well, first of all, as I said, very soon, commonly available computers will be powerfull enough to handle 4K! So, what you said is true right now, but things change so fast that 6 months from now, I bet many "Red Customers" will be able to handle a 4K workflow... Will they need it or choose it, that's another question! I think a quality 2K is probably gonna be good enough most of the times, for most projects... Fortunately, I'm more and more confident in the fact the Red will be able to offer quality 2K! So, I think the Red might become a usefull tool for me in the near future ;)

 

As for your 720 comments, well... I was just exagerating: 1080p seems a rather better example in my opinion! Every recent PC can handle 1080p24 (as long as the software supports it of course)... But, short from a Genesis or some HDCAM-SR cameras which are many times more expensive than the Red, can you tell me what sort of other (affordable) ALREADY AVAILABLE options are on the table, except very inferior ones compared to what Red appears to be able to offer (at least on paper)??

 

Again, I agree with you about the fact many "RedFans" are gonna be somehow dissapointed ... But I also believe there are 2 sides to that argument: Red doesn't force anyone to shoot 4K straight out of the box! Red seems to be rather flexible... Different resolutions... Different formats (super35, 35, 16, 2/3")->different Depths of Field! Different frame rates... Different mounts, different optics... Efficient compression algorithm! All this at least on paper! What more, at this point of time, can one possibly ask for a camera, in terms of flexibility and "future-proof" waranty? I think they did the right choices on paper! Now, let's wait and see what they actually can deliver, shall we?

 

What's funny to me is the language used to champion the cause. It comes across as rather "cultish".

 

You know what? I feel the exact same, but the other way around! Sure, Jim has an army of devoted fans! But the opposite is also true: never in my life have I seen so much hatred, so much condescendance, so much distrust, so much urge to mock or to laugh about "the gullible people who dared to trust this scam", so much negative emotions directed against a single piece of hardware or the people who dared to be even mildly enthusiastic about it ... A simple piece of hardware that isn't even available yet! You know what: on another discussion board, some people I know got insulted (and even worse: it went as far as for some anti-Red-fanboys to break the law... something I don't whish to speak about too much for obvious legal reasons...) simply because these few people who got interested in Red and made a reservation, they dared to send some informations about the Red... Never said anything more than what is currently available on the RED website, along with their own personal impressions based on what they had seen when they attended the Red presentation at IBC-Amsterdam last year. I clearly didn't expect that kind of violent reaction against the "messengers"... I intended no wrong by starting that discussion... It was as if some people felt threatened, felt completly distressed because of what Red promised on paper! I have to admit some of the most violent reactions came from people who just invested hundreds of thousands dollars in Sony hardware. But still... why should they feel the urge to insult the messengers the way they did back then?

 

Boy! I can already see the endless discussions we'll get when it is finaly out for us to have a look at... If people don't try to chill a little, I'm pretty sure we'll then have many "heated" discussions and endless lists of insults! But what for? Can't we just all get a life and recognise this is just a simple piece of hardware! It will neither be "THE BIGGEST REVOLUTION EVER" nor does it seems to be the bastard child of the biggest scam ever! By now, it seems to be rather genuine to anyone but the most extreme anti-RED-fanboys! I think we all should let them work and give them a chance to show up what they've managed to create! That's it!

 

P.S. at the very least, one has to recognize the fact Red managed to make thousands of people "aware" of their brand and talk about it without ever paying a single cent in advertising... Now, that, in my book, is a pretty nice accomplishment. "Brand Awareness" typically costs a ton of money! I happen to hold a Business Management degree, so, I can tell you with some reasonable confidence that, if Red manages to become a successful business, business schools worldwide will use it as a "case study"..., at least for its questionable yet very efficient type of internet marketing strategy :) The more we talk about them, the more they win, in terms of "Brand Awareness"! Pretty cool isn't it? Maybe the "black list" we spoke about over here is also part of that strategy... Mmm... food for toughts... Let's get back to work! :)

[Guest]

$17,500 is for the camera body, and that's supposedly just the price that current reservation holders will pay (i.e. it will probably go up once they're for sale to the general public).

 

You'll need lenses on top of that - anything from 35mm SLR lenses (with adapter) to PL. The camera body also doesn't include a viewfinder/monitor or recording hardware, but the latter looks to be reasonably priced at around $1000 for 320GB - several hours worth of RAW footage.

 

I believe that they're supposed to announce prices for all of the accessories in about 2 weeks.

 

So, I'd guesstimate anywhere from about $20K for an absolute bare-bones camera with a 35mm SLR lens (e.g. Nikon 50mm f/1.4) to $30K for a decently equipped camera if you own or plan to rent PL or other cine glass.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

Now after the shoot can I get this video into the Mac via firewire and edit away in FCP? Or will I need some thing new?

 

When the edit is done, what can output to? I assume I would need an HD deck of some sort?

 

Thanks

R,

[Troy Warr]

Thanks for the info.

 

Now after the shoot can I get this video into the Mac via firewire and edit away in FCP? Or will I need some thing new?

 

When the edit is done, what can output to? I assume I would need an HD deck of some sort?

 

Thanks

R,

Hi Richard,

 

Sure thing. I'm not that up-to-date on Red post options, so I could certainly be wrong about the finer points, but:

 

- There's a 320GB onboard "RedRaid" HDD module (about $1000) that you record to in the field (it's compact and attached to the camera), and later transfer to the computer using a few common cables. I'm not sure if FireWire is an option but I wouldn't be surprised if it is - I would guess that, Ethernet and USB 2.0. There should also be an option for a larger-scale RAID setup should you be shooting uncompressed RAW (323MB/sec. !!!) or a whole lot of footage.

- The most attractive workflow seems to be "RedCode RAW," which is a proprietary RAW format that will apparently give visually lossless compression (VBR wavelet) at 27MB/sec at 24fps. That's 4K, though, 10 bit log 4:2:2 I believe.

- Once you get the RAW footage on your computer, you have to run it through the included software package (RedCine) which works similarly to RAW software that you get with pro digital SLR cameras. You can tweak the footage contrast, color, etc. to your liking and then export it to a wide variety of formats - for example, DVCPRO HD, H.264, DV, even still frame formats like TIFF and Cineon. Once the footage is in one of these standard formats, you should be able to work with it just like you would had you shot on it originally and ingested it into your NLE. In other words, so long as your NLE can handle your chosen export format, you can edit it right from there.

 

Should it all come out as planned, the workflow actually seems very powerful and versatile to me - you'd keep the original RedCode RAW 4K for archive, and then be able to output multiple formats based on your needs at any point. It sounds very similar to a RAW workflow for a digital SLR, which I think was the intention.

 

There's some info on the Red website, and you can probably find a lot more detail in the forums.

[Ralph Oshiro]

I assume the $17K is not for a turn key system, or is it?

This is my personal "minimum" RED system:

 

$17,500 . . . . RED ONE body w/PL-mount (includes LCD, but no EVF)

$ 1,000 . . . . .RED DRIVE (160GB on-board HDD, holds 1-hour REDCODE 4K)

$ 1,000* . . . .Nikon F-mount adapter *(this is only my personal guess, based on hinted pricing strategy)

 

So, the minimum system would be the body, 1-hour on-board storage, either V-mount or other battery system, and glass. The camera comes with a V-mount battery mount. I already own four Anton Bauer bricks, and a V-mount to Gold Mount adapter. I also already own a ton of fast Nikkors.

 

By the way, what's with all the hostility on this board?

[Carl Brighton]

Hi Richard,

 

- Once you get the RAW footage on your computer, you have to run it through the included software package (RedCine) which works similarly to RAW software that you get with pro digital SLR cameras. You can tweak the footage contrast, color, etc. to your liking and then export it to a wide variety of formats - for example, DVCPRO HD, H.264, DV, even still frame formats like TIFF and Cineon. Once the footage is in one of these standard formats, you should be able to work with it just like you would had you shot on it originally and ingested it into your NLE. In other words, so long as your NLE can handle your chosen export format, you can edit it right from there.

By the way, will these RED-whatever software packages be available for the PC format, or only MACs. Nattress apparently only makes stuff for MACs. Not totally mission-critical, but it's another complication that nobody has mentioned

 

By the way, what's with all the hostility on this board?

Most of it exists entirely in the overactive imaginations of RED Fanboys.

Hostility and derision are two different things.

We do get frustrated by all the stupid "Straw Man" arguments they keep putting forward though. But than it's always easier to throw a tantrum than to debate the gaping holes in your argument :P

[Phil Rhodes]

- There's a 320GB onboard "RedRaid" HDD module (about $1000)

 

Two issues here. First off, there isn't any such thing yet. I'm not normally such a stickler for this sort of syntactical vaporosity, but really - none of this stuff exists yet.

 

But the main objection here is that no device which can be sold for $1000 is capable of recording a 4K picture under any compression regime which would actually resolve 4K worth of information. Rather, I presume they're talking about their Redcode wavelet codec, which at around 27Mbyte/second is presumably how most people will shoot.

 

> The most attractive workflow seems to be "RedCode RAW," which is a proprietary RAW format

 

It's wavelet compressed. It is by its very definition anything but raw.

 

> (VBR wavelet) at 27MB/sec

 

So it's variable bit rate, but it's 27Mbyte/second? Make your mind up.

 

> which works similarly to RAW software that you get with pro digital SLR cameras.

 

> You can tweak the footage contrast, color, etc. to your liking and then export it to a wide variety of formats

> - for example, DVCPRO HD, H.264, DV, even still frame formats like TIFF and Cineon.

 

Does it? Can you? How do you know? Has any of this software been written? Have you used it?

 

> It sounds very similar to a RAW workflow for a digital SLR, which I think was the intention.

 

It is completely and fundamentally different to that - you're compressing the data.

 

The thing does not exist. When it does, talk. Until then...

 

Phil

[Ralph Oshiro]

Hostility and derision are two different things.

Excuse me, but calling RED reservation holders, "imbeciles," seems a bit over the top to me.

[Graeme Nattress]

REDCINE is cross platform, Mac (intel) and Windows PC.

[Cesar Rubio]

Excuse me, but calling RED reservation holders, "imbeciles," seems a bit over the top to me.

 

I don't think they are imbeciles. Actually thanks to JJ generosity, they can even make a 10% profit out of their investment if they decide that they don't want the Camera anymore...try that interest rate in your bank!

 

Cesar Rubio.

[Ralph Oshiro]

For fu**s sake , when are you Red worshippers going to get it , you dont need a 4k digital camera to make movies , look at that awful film "The Blair Witch Project " shot with a couple of empty baked bean tins and a bit of tape running through them . Cost about if i remember about $25,000 , made about $250 million , the audiences loved it . Its story people , please understand it .

What does a post about "story" have to do with a technical discussion thread?