Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted March 17, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted March 17, 2007 Hi, The mood seems to have changed in the last few days, just curious what people think? Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 The bigger issue will be how many guys can keep the gear? A typical pattern is this. 1) Man gets new camera gear. 2) Man tries to market himself with camera to get work. 3) Man fails miserably on the marketing end and can't get work for himself and the gear. 4) Gear ends up on ebay. I have seen this pattern happen so many times. It happened a lot when the XL1 was introduced. Guys buy gear but they forget that is only 10% of the equasion. The other 90% is the marketing to get work. There are tons of guys who can shoot well, only a tiny few have the skills to keep working consistently. As evidenced by the numerous posts on this very web site from shooters asking for help in marketing their gear package. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Kenny Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 The mood seems to have changed in the last few days, just curious what people think? There are a couple of posters over here who are changing the tone, but this is practically the Official Forum for Anti-Red Rants. I wouldn't read too much into it. Over at Reduser the tone is still very positive. As far as the conversion rate for reservations... I'd expect better than 90% for reservation holders who regularly post over at Reduser. I wouldn't want to guess for the entire pool of reservation holders, because I've never had any contact with them. Though my guess is almost everyone who can come up with the cash at all will buy. Even people who've decided they don't want the camera will probably buy, because it's a pretty sure bet they'll be able to turn around and sell the thing (plus the $2500 worth of free accessories) for more than they paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted March 17, 2007 Author Premium Member Share Posted March 17, 2007 Even people who've decided they don't want the camera will probably buy, because it's a pretty sure bet they'll be able to turn around and sell the thing (plus the $2500 worth of free accessories) for more than they paid. Hi Chris, If your in the first 250 cameras maybe, but Ebay + Paypal charges would take quite a bite. I wonder if there will be a special NAB discount? not unusual IMHO. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Brighton Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 There are a couple of posters over here who are changing the tone, but this is practically the Official Forum for Anti-Red Rants. Look, before you put that old record on again, you want to transfer it to CD before you wear it out?! By "Anti-Red rant", I presume you mean multi-sentence posts where people insist on real information instead of endless screens of one-line ass-licking tripe like: "You da man, Jim!", or endless questions about accessories that anybody who really knew anything about professional film or video formats should know the answers to already. After all, isn't one of the key advantages of the RED concept supposed to be that it has a high compatibility with the existing production infrastructure? Kindly remember folks, deposit placers don't risk anything apart from temporary lack of direct access to their $1,000 for a while. They can get it back any time they ask for it; it's not a non-refundable deposit, and it they get the promised 110% refund, that will probably cover interest charges on their credit cards. It would have been interesting to see how many takers RED got if it wasn't refundable like that. That's also a very good point of Richard Boddington's about the potential "churn" rate, that is, the number of punters who pledge their plastic for a full RED setup and then find they haven't a hope in Hell of actually making a living with it, much less paying it off! :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Kenny Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 Look, before you put that old record on again, you want to transfer it to CD before you wear it out?! By "Anti-Red rant", I presume you mean multi-sentence posts where people insist on real information instead of endless screens of one-line ass-licking tripe like: "You da man, Jim!", or endless questions about accessories that anybody who really knew anything about professional film or video formats should know the answers to already. After all, isn't one of the key advantages of the RED concept supposed to be that it has a high compatibility with the existing production infrastructure? Nah. I'm talking about the people who have accused Red of lying or deliberately misleading people (about a large number of things), gone on about Red's participation in online forums as if it's something to be discouraged, repeatedly advanced cost arguments that anyone familiar with the industry knows are invalid, and insulted Red reservation holders as a group. Kindly remember folks, deposit placers don't risk anything apart from temporary lack of direct access to their $1,000 for a while. They can get it back any time they ask for it; it's not a non-refundable deposit, and it they get the promised 110% refund, that will probably cover interest charges on their credit cards. It would have been interesting to see how many takers RED got if it wasn't refundable like that. I'm not sure a program that worked that way would have even been legal. That's also a very good point of Richard Boddington's about the potential "churn" rate, that is, the number of punters who pledge their plastic for a full RED setup and then find they haven't a hope in Hell of actually making a living with it, much less paying it off! :rolleyes: I seriously doubt anyone buying the camera with the intention of making it pay for itself hasn't thought pretty hard about how to do that. Any business venture entails some risk; undoubtedly some people's plans won't pan out and they'll end up selling the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrizio De Sica Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 There are a couple of posters over here who are changing the tone, but this is practically the Official Forum for Anti-Red Rants. I wouldn't read too much into it. Over at Reduser the tone is still very positive. As far as the conversion rate for reservations... I'd expect better than 90% for reservation holders who regularly post over at Reduser. I am not an Anti-Red. Never was. At the RedYesUser, the tone will be what the Red guys want that be. What are you expecting? :o Do you want an example? Follow the posts. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?...mp;postcount=39 http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?...mp;postcount=44 http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?...mp;postcount=47 http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?...mp;postcount=49 http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?...mp;postcount=50 I take my own conclusions. Aside the $350 Toshiba 5.6" LCD (yeah, we know that the 5.6" LCD will be made among sunglasses), it's not difficult to guess where the drama is. The Red arguments are Sony-like or beyond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Kenny Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 (edited) I am not an Anti-Red. Never was. Right, you're just saying that you thought the camera was a revolution, but you've changed your mind because some of the accessories cost a little more than you'd like. I take my own conclusions. Aside the $350 Toshiba 5.6" LCD (yeah, we know that the 5.6" LCD will be made among sunglasses), it's not difficult to guess where the drama is. Jannard has said flat out that's not the panel Red is using. You just linked to the post. Are you accusing Red of lying again? The Red arguments are Sony-like or beyond. I can barely even figure out what this means. Edited March 18, 2007 by Chris Kenny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted March 18, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted March 18, 2007 I'm almost tempted to ask Tim Tyler to simply delete all RED posts and forums, because this is getting ridiculous, the endless taunting on both sides. For some posters, it's gone way beyond being helpful in reminding less-experienced people of the harsh realities of production into simply being nasty and cruel to those who they feel aren't as "professional" as they are. You would expect a little more maturity from those of us who are older and supposedly wiser. Unless you have real evidence otherwise, either people who made a reservation will get their camera, or if not, they'll get a refund, so what's the point of this conjecture? Does it have a purpose? Just mean-spirited fun from betting on potential failure? I don't get why all of you don't just hold your tongues for a few months and see what shakes out with the camera. Stop baiting each other. As for the extra cost of accesories beyond the camera body, many of us have been telling everyone that this was inevitable from the beginning -- it's such a no-brainer that I'm surprised anyone is surprised. Because of the price, the camera was never aimed at the DV crowd, who typically spend $4000 on a camera; it is a professional camera more in the price range of an SDX900, but obviously with a lot more resolution. Professional cameras use expensive accessories. Amateurs, beginners, and film students, don't drop $20,000 on a camera body, and certainly they have no need for a 4K digital cinema camera. This is a camera aimed at professionals and independent filmmakers who might normally be considering a DVCPRO50 or DVCPROHD or Super-16 camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrizio De Sica Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 (edited) Right, you're just saying that you thought the camera was a revolution, but you've changed your mind because some of the accessories cost a little more than you'd like. It's the philosophy that counts. They said one thing and they are presenting a different deal after 1500 reservations. Not necessarily lying. Jannard has said flat out that's not the panel Red is using. You just linked to the post. Are you accusing Red of lying again? Again??? :blink: Be careful, don't put words that I did not say. :( Once more, they call it marketing. :P On the "Sony-like or beyond" quote, since your major is political science or whatever, perhaps you don't follow my concern. But I can read over these same pages who has the same viewpoint. http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/in...st&p=161235 I am not alone, mon cher. :ph34r: Edited March 18, 2007 by Patrizio De Sica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrizio De Sica Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 (edited) On this pages role quote, this has been a free forum. A fine example over other latitudes. Where a decent customer attitude can have a different echo rather till now: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?...p;postcount=118 http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?...p;postcount=119 Edited March 18, 2007 by Patrizio De Sica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrizio De Sica Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 (edited) As for the extra cost of accesories beyond the camera body, many of us have been telling everyone that this was inevitable from the beginning -- it's such a no-brainer that I'm surprised anyone is surprised. Because of the price, the camera was never aimed at the DV crowd, who typically spend $4000 on a camera; it is a professional camera more in the price range of an SDX900, but obviously with a lot more resolution. Professional cameras use expensive accessories. Amateurs, beginners, and film students, don't drop $20,000 on a camera body, and certainly they have no need for a 4K digital cinema camera. This is a camera aimed at professionals and independent filmmakers who might normally be considering a DVCPRO50 or DVCPROHD or Super-16 camera. I will use this camera so I am among them. I know other Red buyers spread all over the fields. Professionals and independent people. But also beginners, film students, art-film makers... The 1500 number is not a low number. Edited March 18, 2007 by Patrizio De Sica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrizio De Sica Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 (edited) I surely added my vote on the 1250-1500 category but I don't take away a single word on that point. An unsatisfied customer. Edited March 18, 2007 by Patrizio De Sica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Drysdale Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 I will use this camera so I am among them. I know other Red buyers spread all over the fields. Professionals and independent people. But also beginners, film students, art-film makers... The 1500 number is not a low number. I'm not sure why a beginner should spend this amount of money on a camera. They and the film students (I only noticed one on REDUSER) are taking a big risk. I don't recall film students dashing off to buy DSR 570s or DSR450s, which cost less than a RED but give much better pictures than the PD 150. I know students have bought old CP16Rs etc, but the investment is a lot lower and people have been making feature films for the cost of a kitted out RED. The 1500 is a good baseline for planning production, you can get good prices for manufacturing your components compared to lower batch sizes. I'd guess RED are thinking in terms of roughly a 10% drop out rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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