The Jim Jones of cameras

[Matthew Buick]

I've been improving myself, I also have no industry power. You do.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Matthew Buick

[Guest]

I have industry power? Ha! that's a laugh, I have less than zero.

 

R,

[Matthew Buick]

HOHO! Join me, I couldn't even get an ASC member to make me a cuppa. :lol:

[Matthew Buick]

This is going to turn into a full blown forum war.

 

How do we battle 'em? Go-Karts? Airsoft?

 

I suck at football.

[M Joel W]

I'm amazed how immature people are acting on both sides.

 

Think about it from the perspective of a not-terribly-wealthy aspiring filmmaker or low budget filmmaker who wants to improve. The dvx, hvx, red, etc. are low cost, actually purchasable cameras promising (though more often than not not delivering) the quality (or something close to it) of 35mm film (remember the hoopla over 24p years ago?) This is genuinly exciting, and while some may laugh at the obsession with specs, people need to quantify the awesomeness of what they're getting, or, in the case of people as poor as me, they need to justify large purchases. It's not Panasonic and Red's fault that this audience is easily marketed to.

 

On the other side you have pros and semi-pros who are being told by amateurs that their skills are no longer needed; that a "revolution" is coming that will put them and their ways out of business. This is ridiculous; no camera will buy you cinematography skills, although I won't lie when I admit that shooting DVX footage is way easier and cheaper even that shooting decent 16mm footage.

 

Why can't we all just agree that story (or in the case of DPs artistry and technical skill) are most important, and no camera is going to change this? The fallout of the Red camera will probably prove similar to the fallout of the dvx, but at a different level of production. The dvx didn't really revolutionize anything, but it found extreme popularity and introduced a bunch of shooters into the world of video production. The Red will probably introduce a bunch of amateurs into the world of higher end work and it will facilitate high quality production, but it certainly won't guarantee it.

 

The worst these cameras can do (besides generate endless hype) is to democratize the world of film and video production. And if all of you have the skills you claim to, this is a non-issue. Personally, I'm really excited about the Red camera because I can afford it for rental and it promises to be a huge leap in quality over HDV. Do I expect to get Hollywood quality results? Only if I light well!

Edited April 17, 2007 by Matthew Wauhkonen

[Max Jacoby]

if you would check out the posters in detail, you might realize that among these "hobbiest" are emmy-award decorated, NY filmfestival winners, multi-million rental shop owners and A-budget cinematographers from all over the world.

Indeed it's a good idea to check out that emmy award winning material on the emmy award winning person's website.

[Matthew Buick]

According to IMDB my "STARmeter" is up 51% since last week!!

 

R,

 

Did you rob McDonald's or something? :P

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I'm always so confused by this bickering.

 

1) Can we all agree Mini-DV cameras suck ass?

2) Can wel all agree not everyone can afford film.

 

I don't see how someone can simultaneously slam prosumer camera image quality and in the same breath condemn those who want better as ignorant idiots.

 

Everyone join in the hatred of Mini-DV and DVCAM, as one!

[Matthew Buick]

YES!! OH YES!!!! THEY SUCK FAT MAN'S ASS!!!!!!

 

SCREAM IT TO THE WORLD!!!!!!!

[Walter Graff]

They haven't even delivered a camera yet and already have an amazing catalog of extras that is growing wih each day of NAB.

• RED is developing a new Professional Pocket Camera (Mini Red)
  
• RED is developing a new line of 4k displays
  
• RED is developing a 4k projector
  
• New Prime Lens set Priced at $19,975 (15mm f2.8, 25mm f1.9, 35mm f1.9, 50mm f1.9, 85mm f1.9)
  
• New Zoom Lens (18-50mm) priced at $6500 Does not replace 18-85mm, but reservation holders can swap
  
• Canon EOS lens mount
  
• Canon FD lens mount Price $500
  
• SuperGrip Presumably a variation upon the current handles available for the RedRail/Cage setups, including remote control of Canon EOS lens mount as well as...
  
• Red Motor very little information about this,
  
• RedArm reduced also re-included with LCD Screen for free
  
• Magic Focus Assist - It's a waveform type display at the base of the screen/viewfinder, so for each column of pixels there's only a single point showing the level of sharpness for that column.
  

And most important, can I get a pair of Oakleys too with RED. Which reminds me, the single best place to buy Oakleys in NY is from street vendors who all hail from West Africa and speak enough English to say "Oakley, ten dollar" and who lay it all out on a towel on the street waiting for the police to come buy so they can snatch it up and run if need be. WIll that be how RED is mostly distributed too? :)

[David Bradley]

I'm always so confused by this bickering.

 

1) Can we all agree Mini-DV cameras suck ass?

2) Can wel all agree not everyone can afford film.

 

I don't see how someone can simultaneously slam prosumer camera image quality and in the same breath condemn those who want better as ignorant idiots.

 

Everyone join in the hatred of Mini-DV and DVCAM, as one!

 

Sorry Gavin but I won't agree, infact if it suits the project I'd shoot high8 tape. Resolution and colour fidelity aren't always the most important aspects of storytelling, wouldn't you agree?

 

Perhaps this is an issue this discussion may touch upon, it would seem there is a tendancy to place emphasis on the technical 'superiority' of certain formats. Red has obviously rattled a few chains and it would seem many are intimidated by it or downright condeming despite not having used the thing. 4k presents a new perhaps improved method of image capturing but it won't replace film. Its just another gadget in the tool box that has advantages and disadvantages. I would be glad to get my hands on one just to see if it lives up to the hype it has generated.

[Walter Graff]

Perhaps this is an issue this discussion may touch upon, it would seem there is a tendancy to place emphasis on the technical 'superiority' of certain formats.

 

I was the one who brought up DV in my earlier post as today I shot with DV. You are correct that there is an emphasis on technical 'superiority' of formats. Like the jumblemouths who give away the fact that they know little about what they talk about and use it even less, if at all, those that spout about "better" as a veil of intellect and experience are in fact given away as amateurs just the same. I could have shot 35mm to day. I could have shot 16mm, perhaps any of the HD formats or camera, but as a professional my life is not a victim of only shooting what is 'best', rather I shoot for what is best for the job. Today I shot a fashion piece that plays in the showroom of a major clothing manufacture. Why DV? Because this direct to DVD video needed nothing more than 16:9 DV to do what it needed to. It's never about better for a professional, only what works for the job.

 

I really have to laugh at the ignorance by most of these neophytes who scream tech specs as a badge of professionalism. I'm sure (as I said) that RED has a niche audience. In that regard I wish it the best. But since 95% of all the film and video that is shot ends up on a TV screen, a 4k camera is overkill and for 95% of the work out there, USELESS. So for those few professionals that bought into RED because they think they have a need for 4k acquisition, great. Perhaps for film out they do. But for the rest who are nothing more than amateurs and videographers who have little to no real world experience that preach 4k acquisition as if it's going to change the face of 95% of all film and television acquisition, they do nothing more than embarrass themselves but because they are neophytes trying to act out being filmmakers, DoPs, Producers, etc, all a real professional can do is laugh as you would at a child who learned for the first time what a water fountain does when you press the button.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Sorry Gavin but I won't agree, in fact if it suits the project I'd shoot high8 tape. Resolution and colour fidelity aren't always the most important aspects of storytelling, wouldn't you agree?

 

Perhaps this is an issue this discussion may touch upon, it would seem there is a tendency to place emphasis on the technical 'superiority' of certain formats. Red has obviously rattled a few chains and it would seem many are intimidated by it or downright condemning despite not having used the thing. 4k presents a new perhaps improved method of image capturing but it won't replace film. Its just another gadget in the tool box that has advantages and disadvantages. I would be glad to get my hands on one just to see if it lives up to the hype it has generated.

 

All things aside, I can't imagine a project where I would choose high8 for its high8ness. Same with DV. Unless I was making a movie told through the perspective of a kid with a crappy consumer camera. Maybe in 20 years it'll be retro but for now it's just garbage "oooo His head comes to a boxy point cool!" "I love how her eyes are made out of squares!". It's even worse once VFX get into the mix. There is no reason on god's green earth I should ever have to put up with DV greenscreen material again.

 

I just seem to hear crap day in and day out about how great film is and how terrible video, especially DV, is. And then the next day it's how all these REDHeads are being duped into wanting something closer to the quality of film. I would love to take every cinematographer bitching about REDHead enthusiasim and force them to shoot with a Canon GL2 or DVX or whatever it is people are upgrading from for a project. Hell even a SD 2/3" chip camera would be a huge improvement in most circumstances.

 

People were just saying they would judge the RED on how well it recovers from a poorly shot piece of material. The inevitable poor exposure etc. Well in the case of DV, you don't get to recover. Not at all. You go any darker and you get noise. You go any brighter and you clip even worse. "Technical superiority" offers you more room to fail. Sure, you want 4 stops of latitude? Go right ahead in... post.

Edited April 18, 2007 by Gavin Greenwalt

[Thomas James]

I know but most stores now adays have flat panel high definition televisions. This is not just clothing stores found at shopping malls but even hardware stores and tire shops have high definition televisions simply because these televisions are flat panel and they save space compared to the bulky CRT standard definition televisions. With the advent of HD-DVD decks and Blu-Ray it would be very easy to deliver store commercials in high definition. DV just doesn't look very good when displayed on a high definition television.

[Tenolian Bell]

All things aside, I can't imagine a project where I would choose high8 for its high8ness. Same with DV. Unless I was making a movie told through the perspective of a kid with a crappy consumer camera.

 

Well you miss one of the important points of cinematography. The point isn't always about the highest quality. That is important at times but creating a look that fits the mood and tone of the material is more important. Thinking this way you limit yourself creatively.

 

You probably missed a few years ago when Pixelvision was a big fad.

 

 

 

These were toy camera from Fisher Price. They recorded video on compact tapes. From a quality standpoint the picture was horrible. But it was a unique look that was used for a dramatic effect.

[Walter Graff]

I know but most stores now adays have flat panel high definition televisions. This is not just clothing stores found at shopping malls but even hardware stores and tire shops have high definition televisions simply because these televisions are flat panel and they save space compared to the bulky CRT standard definition televisions. With the advent of HD-DVD decks and Blu-Ray it would be very easy to deliver store commercials in high definition. DV just doesn't look very good when displayed on a high definition television.

 

If HD-DVD players were readily available or Blue ray but most all don't have such new fangled toys and frankly don't need it as professional footage shot by professionals with more than prosumer equipment looks just as good in your so called HDTV sets as your guessing based on little real world experience shows. I have a project playing in a 60" Panasonic HD monitor in the Poggen Pohl showroom that anyone can view on 58th between Third and Lex. Tell me what format it is? Someone go down there and look at the monitor with your own two eyes. It is playing 24/7. PLEASE!!! Someone tell me what format you are viewing?

 

You neophytes could learn a lot of you'd listen instead of guessing all the time. It's really becoming time to call out this crap and separate pros from amateurs on boards like this that are supposed to accommodate professional motion picture camera people, and even neophytes as long as you act like such and ask questions or make comments based on knowledge not stuff your guessing at.

[Walter Graff]

Well in the case of DV, you don't get to recover. Not at all. You go any darker and you get noise. You go any brighter and you clip even worse. "Technical superiority" offers you more room to fail.

 

If you're an amateur will little experience in shooting perhaps, but for a professional your argument has little relevance. Recovery is when you overshoot the turn because you don?t know the road, just can't handle the vehicle your driving, and in most cases have a car that shouldn't be used for what your trying to do. I shot in a studio situation today with both darks and lights in many cases very much contrasted with each other and suffered none of what you speak of even though I pushed both limits of acceptable exposure quite substantially at times. Would I use th footage I shot and play it ona 40 foot screen? No but that is not it's purpose so anyting more than what I shot iwth today would be overkill. Or said another way "more room to fail" means you shouldn't be driving the car in the first place.

[Alessandro Machi]

You neophytes could learn a lot of you'd listen instead of guessing all the time. It's really becoming time to call out this crap and separate pros from amateurs on boards like this that are supposed to accommodate professional motion picture camera people, and even neophytes as long as you act like such and ask questions or make comments based on knowledge not stuff your guessing at.....

 

 

Why not spend this negative energy looking over the forums and answering a question or two that fell through the cracks and wasn't answered?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I'm not so ignorant as to not understand the difference between "quality" and "style". I'm personally a huge fan of cellphone photography and even print off photos I take because I like the look so much. To say a cell phone camera is quality is rediculous but I enjoy the look.

 

The DV format obviously is capable of capturing images. MS Paint is fully capable of creating photographs too, I value the tools at my disposal on the ease at which I can capture the results I want. That's true of my software, that's true of my cameras and that's true of those I choose to work with. If you want to muddle around making sure every beveled edge in the frame isn't catching a highlight that might blow out, be my guest. Personally I would rather focus on the film or commercial I'm trying to make. Yeah yeah yeah constraints in art and all that but I get excited about things which make my life quicker and easier. I got excited about the Viper, the F900, the Arri 235 and I'm sure I'll continue to get excited about other new tools that come along that offer better results with less hastle.

 

I would imagine with enough time and effort one could shoot an absolutely georgeous DV feature and project it on a 40 foot screen. I've seen some people get pretty darn close. But I also know to what extent you have to sweat blood to make it happen. Shooting DV is like shooting slide film, only in the case of slide film you at least get a potentially desireable result, in DV you work twice as hard and get half as much. That's not the equation I enjoy working under. If I want the DV look all I have to do is throw on a LUT, apply a distortion node to my cyan and magenta and recompress through a DV codec. If I have a DV master, I don't get to go anywhere.

 

I used to work on an old pentium 120 with 128MBs of RAM. I can't imagine going back. Have all of my computer upgrades made me a better artist? "HELLLL YES!" Why? Because I was allowed more freedom to fail. Freedom to fail and push the envelope is how you learn. Perhaps it's been a while since you've ascended and have forgotten how us mere mortals progress.

 

I just shot some plates for a composite using a DSLR on burst mode. Why? Because I needed 4k plates, I didn't happen to have a 4k motion picture camera and I couldn't exactly ring someone up and go "hey would you mind takingn some time out of your schedule this afternoon to go shoot an ocean plate from..." I use what I have at my disposal, in that case a 4k motion picture camera would have saved me a great deal of time and effort later stabilizing and retiming, but it worked. I understand "use what you got" or "the best tool for the job is the right tool whatever that may be." Compositing is all about repurposing material in ways it wasn't necessarily intended.

 

That's part of the reason I'm interested in the RED. I was looking at the F900 -> HDCAM or S35 through a 2k Davinci -> DPX for a spec spot I wanted to shoot to work out some of the kinks in my HD pipeline but I've decided to hold off on that specific project because I think RED will deliver the best results and deliver for under the cost of shooting film. I'm not even considering DV because I don't consider DV a look I want to achieve and I don't think except under very extreme conditions it's a look anyone else is seeking to achieve either. The only advantage to a DV camera I can see is cost. Nothing more. Maybe for a Cyborg POV... but I would hope if a civilization could build a cyborg his vision system would be far superior to a handicam.

 

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be listening and learning from you? That amateurs should be restricted to DV and pros should have a monopoly on top quality production equipment? Can I not use HMIs either because I haven't shot enough features? I didn't learn still photography through using a point and shoot disposable, I did it through using professional equipment on professional shoots. None of these amateurs are going to learn to pull focus using a DV camera. Are most red reservation holders going to achieve nothing of consequence? Probably but they aren't hurting anyone and honestly I find their enthusiasm encouraging and a bit frightening. If they put half as much energy into developing their shooting talents as they do their devotion to red I'm sure they'll do more than I.

 

If you want to be a racecar driver eventually you gotta drive fast! And you know what, probably drive off a few roads now and then.

 

- Gavin

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Unfortunately, If your branded a Jerk or whatever.. your not gunna get picked up by too many people.. Sure you might do indi films out in timbucktoo but when it comes down to it..The real world is onboard and knows whats up.. once they see names and put things together you will be banned from not just a silly forum.. but from the professional industry.

Thats my 2 cents

[Michael Newton]

They haven't even delivered a camera yet and already have an amazing catalog of extras that is growing wih each day of NAB.

• RED is developing a new Professional Pocket Camera (Mini Red)
  
• RED is developing a new line of 4k displays
  
• RED is developing a 4k projector
  
• New Prime Lens set Priced at $19,975 (15mm f2.8, 25mm f1.9, 35mm f1.9, 50mm f1.9, 85mm f1.9)
  
• New Zoom Lens (18-50mm) priced at $6500 Does not replace 18-85mm, but reservation holders can swap
  
• Canon EOS lens mount
  
• Canon FD lens mount Price $500
  
• SuperGrip Presumably a variation upon the current handles available for the RedRail/Cage setups, including remote control of Canon EOS lens mount as well as...
  
• Red Motor very little information about this,
  
• RedArm reduced also re-included with LCD Screen for free
  
• Magic Focus Assist - It's a waveform type display at the base of the screen/viewfinder, so for each column of pixels there's only a single point showing the level of sharpness for that column.
  

And most important, can I get a pair of Oakleys too with RED. Which reminds me, the single best place to buy Oakleys in NY is from street vendors who all hail from West Africa and speak enough English to say "Oakley, ten dollar" and who lay it all out on a towel on the street waiting for the police to come buy so they can snatch it up and run if need be. WIll that be how RED is mostly distributed too? :)

Mr Graff,

 

With all due respect, it kinda makes you look a tad cheap, yourself, bashing the camera and its creators without any real basis besides a hate fuelled smear campaign. I just wonder if this is how we supposedly older and more experienced industry tradesmen should carry on. I do also think you're helping the quoted amatuers and wannabes and their cause by adding fuel to fire as it were. Please use a little briddled restrain.

[Thomas James]

I know but even if you are just starting out in the cinematography business to be taken seriously you have to invest in serious gear. Investing in the Red Digital Cinema may be overkill but it is better to be overkill than to be underkill. And when you invest $35,000 in gear the last thing you want is your equipment to become obsolete. For example if the 720p format goes by the wayside with Red you can shoot 1080p. If 1080i goes by the wayside with Red you can shoot 1080p60. And if you need a fast action sports camera for slow motion playback Red can shoot 720p120 or 1080p120. Options in the future will allow you maybe even to shoot at 240 frames per second or higher. Also you can shoot in 4k and downconvert to 4:4:4 colorspace 2k. What you get with Red is real 35mm quality and once it is projected digitally it will have tha apparent resolution of 65mm. The fact is that 4k is not overkill but it will be a requirement for movie theatres that want to offer better quality than what you can get on a regular HDTV set.

[Warren Shultz]

Walter Graff,

I've been reading your posts with dismay. I used to respect you, man. I even paid money to subscribe to your newsletter because I thought you were trying to help those "neophytes" and others less experienced than you to grow and mature in their knowledge and craft.

 

I don't know what has made those Red grapes so very very sour for you, but it's too sad. And since I've observed your clever coining of phrases and definitions, hoping they'll catch on no doubt, and your relentless negativity to all things Red, I'm forced to change my view of you as a "mentor" type to that of a condescending, pretentious hypocrite. Is that "jumblemouth" enough for you? (And I don't even own a pair of Oakleys)

[Matthew Buick]

How much will Mini RED cost?

[Thomas James]

Well Walter does have a point and that is if you talk to a respective client and tell him or her how wonderful ultra high definition is and give a big rant about how your camera exceeds all of these technical specifications and is the best camera in the world unfortunately the question will come up and that is are you just another incompetent person that thinks they can make up for their lack of expertise by buying an expensive camera.

 

Rather than the big talk it may be better even if you are just a beginner and that is too just showcase your work and let your work speak for itself. Just give a demonstration and don't even tell the people that they are watching ultra high definition. If you are a beginner just keep the shots simple and make sure the camera is in focus that you use a tripod and the shots are steady and keep the pans very slow so people do not become seasick. And make sure the exposure is good and the white balance and the shutter speed is okay. View Sonic sells a 23 inch computer monitor for a few thousand dollars that is capable of 3840x2400 resolution that is almost 4k and will be very portable. Then let the people praise you and they will ask you how you did your magic and will ask you if you shoot movies for a living.