Canon 1014xl-s Sound

jason duncan · June 5, 2007

Hello all:

I have a Canon 1014 & 814 both XL-S. I?m trying to figure out how to use the ?MONI? (audio output) with an external audio recorder while using a silent film cartridge. For a test I have the mic turned on and plugged in the camera, pull the trigger to record and with the cartridge door open and the button at the lower left of the film compartment depressed ( I assume this button is the indicator for a sound cartridge) it runs for about two seconds and stops. I can hear sound from the mic through my headphones which are plugged into the MONI jack the whole time the trigger is depressed even after the motor stops. When I do this same test and DO NOT push in the sound cartridge indicator button it stays running for as long as I hold the trigger down. At first I was thinking it stopped because the cartridge door was open. There are various buttons inside the film compartment and even on the inside of the cartridge door that I?ve pushed while filming to try to fool the camera in thinking there is a sound cartridge in place. I?ve also tried this with and without a cartridge (silent) installed. I?ve even messed around in the sound strip area as far as pushing things in, pulling them out while it was filming. And I?ve tried these tests with both cameras. I realize there are other ways of recording the audio but this way I will be able to match the audio easier for the project I?m doing by knowing exactly where the audio kicks in. Thanks, Jason.

Jim Simon · June 6, 2007

I realize there are other ways of recording the audio but this way I will be able to match the audio easier for the project I?m doing by knowing exactly where the audio kicks in.

How do you figure that? You still have to start and stop the audio recorder manually and sync up later. Honestly, I think you're doing it the hard way. Just buy a clapper.

jason duncan · June 6, 2007

How do you figure that? You still have to start and stop the audio recorder manually and sync up later. Honestly, I think you're doing it the hard way. Just buy a clapper.

No, I'm going to have the audio recorder going the whole time. That way there will be no sound untill I go to film. I'm not going to use the audio. It's just for reference purposes.

Douglas Hunter · June 6, 2007

Like Jim, I don't see how doing it that way makes anything easier. Also, you will get better sound quality if you don't go though the camera.

jason duncan · June 7, 2007

The project I'm going to be doing is filming a live band with three cameras going and then I can switch back in forth in post on which camera angle I want to use. But as you might guess since there is no sound it's going to be very hard to tell what song it is as I'm watching the film or even where in the song. I don't want to make a montage video, I want to make an actual live video performance. I'll be able to get the mixed down 24 track cd of the live show so I'm not actually using the camera audio. It is just for reference so I can tell what and where the song is by labeling each exposed cartridge. I've already tried using the "stop and go" record method but it's hard trying to hold the cam and the portable audio device and pushing record at the same time on both units. With the method I want to use, it will be a no brainer because the audio will be recording the whole time but it will be "blank" untill I pull the film trigger and then sound will come through from the camera. This would be 1000 times easier with a video cam with sound because then I would know exactly where and what song it is but hey.......we love Super 8 right!

Alessandro Machi · June 7, 2007

The project I'm going to be doing is filming a live band with three cameras going and then I can switch back in forth in post on which camera angle I want to use. But as you might guess since there is no sound it's going to be very hard to tell what song it is as I'm watching the film or even where in the song. I don't want to make a montage video, I want to make an actual live video performance. I'll be able to get the mixed down 24 track cd of the live show so I'm not actually using the camera audio. It is just for reference so I can tell what and where the song is by labeling each exposed cartridge. I've already tried using the "stop and go" record method but it's hard trying to hold the cam and the portable audio device and pushing record at the same time on both units. With the method I want to use, it will be a no brainer because the audio will be recording the whole time but it will be "blank" untill I pull the film trigger and then sound will come through from the camera. This would be 1000 times easier with a video cam with sound because then I would know exactly where and what song it is but hey.......we love Super 8 right!

There's a simple "trick" when shooting two camera video in which you never turn off either camera so when you go to sync them up in edit you save yourself hours of headaches because once the two video cameras are in synch with each other they should barely drift apart.

You're basically applying the same technique by keeping the audio recording the whole time but only actually having it re-record when the super-8 camera is actually recording, a truly brilliant idea for the situation you will be filming in.

I used a similar concept for a two camera VIDEO project years ago. It was complicated because we had to mix sound of a live person on camera who would hit certain pre-recorded effects while in between he explained how he created the sequences. Well, he had to hear the effects when he hit the button, and since the cameras could see the audio led's lighting up in the shot it would not have worked if he wasn't interacting with the exact music clip he was talking about. If we dubbed it in later it would not necessarily match to the LED's, but the pre-recorded track that was playing through the B camera and then into the speakers was also contaminating his own microphone, so he had to be able to fade it up and down which basically created a live on camera audio mix.

By doing a similar idea to what you are describing we now had a back up sound track that had the live audio take already in sync with the pre-recorded take that was going through the speakers. The performer was able to actually do a live audio mix back and forth between what he was talking about and the actual pre-recorded audio sequence that was traveling through the on camera mixing board, the camera, and then into the audio speakers. As he operated the sound mixing board while he was speaking he was in essence creating the finished sound track we would use for edit. It worked really well. While phase could have been a problem, it ended up working.

Your concept is absolutely a brilliant way to do it, if you can get it to work, ha ha.

jason duncan · June 7, 2007

Thanks Alessandro for your responce. I wouldn't say my way is brilliant. The only reason I thought of this method is because sound film is no longer made. All of my problems would be solved if they still made sound film. Again, I wouldn't actually use the mag audio, it would just be for reference so I would know excalty what bits and pieces of the song I filmed with the second or third camera. Or if Super 8 had a 400 foot magazine housing then I could film a complete song with two cameras constanly going and then cut the angles for the final video in post. But @ 24 fps only holding 2.5 minutes I have a choice of either having one guy film for 2.5 min and then the other kicks in with going back and forth like that or I have one camera going all the time on say a tripod and then one guy moves around getting close-ups and what not but only shooting for 5-30 seconds at a time. This would be much eaiser if either there was sound or the carts held more time. Thanks again.

Terry Mester · June 7, 2007

Hi Jason,

Although I'm not really certain what you're attempting, if you Click the Weblink in my Signature below, you may find my Sound Recording technique useful. You really don't need to film at 24 f/s. If you're filming to copy onto Video, I would recommend using 20 f/s. Good luck!

Alessandro Machi · June 8, 2007

Jason, 18 FPS may work for your purposes. The problem with one camera on sticks and the other camera roving is inevitably the roving camera will be in the shot of the camera on the tripod. I'd really look into trying to get additional coverage during rehearsals, although the problem there is the group probably won't be fully in costume and make-up and the set won't be fully lit and there will be more stopping and starting of the performances as they go through the program content.

This may sound crazy but you might be better off with two cameras both on sticks or both cameras moving around, rather than one of each, with the director actually physically guiding the camera guys from behind whenever the director wants movement (since it will be impossible to have them hear you during the performance). Perhaps a wider shot during rehearsals on sticks might work if the overall set is dressed similarly to how it will look during the performance. This way you have an unobstructed master shot during rehearsal, then crazy stuff during the actual show with the audience present. However, you don't want to show the empty dance floor if you do shoot during rehearsal.

I did a three camera live performance concert shoot in a sports bar. The place was so jammed I was forced to the very back of the place, and I was forced to put both cameras as high as possible. I had one spider pod available, and the other camera I actually jury rigged a set-up with milk crates and gaffers tape. Once I was high up I had to then battle the main wooden beam that spanned across the ceiling halfway between my cameras and the temporary stage that was on a platform.

After both cameras were set-up, and I could no longer move them because the place was so crowded, I used the two side by side camera positions for a medium shot and a close-up. What saved the shoot however was my handing my spare digital-8 camcorder to the brother of the lead singer and he did handheld footage from the audience point of view and then on stage looking at the audience. The whole production would have sucked without that third camera. I pleaded with him to never stop the camera rolling but after a while he got tired and stopped and started a few times which made the editing that much more time-consuming.

So to recap, If you do a tripod based shoot, the tripod should be elevated and near some kind of barricade so people can't just walk into your set-up as that is considered an emergency safety hazard. Have your handheld camera guy dress the way the audience is dressed so even if they are in the shot of the other camera it may not be an issue.

jason duncan · June 8, 2007

Alessandro, yeah, it' hard knowing which method to use for filming a live band as far as one on a stick and one roving or both on sticks etc. Like you said it does depend on the crowd size, stage access. But one good thing about on cam on a stick and one roving is even if I get the other camera guy in the shot I can just cut to the other cam in post. It's a pain but no one wants to watch a "vhs" style home video with just one camera angle right? That's the whole reason for using more than one cam. Althought I just bought the movie Rude Boy (the Clash) and heard that some or all of the concert footage was with only one cam going so what do I know. That spider pod you had, whould that work with a super 8 only having at the most 3min 20sec?

Alessandro Machi · June 14, 2007

Alessandro, yeah, it' hard knowing which method to use for filming a live band as far as one on a stick and one roving or both on sticks etc. Like you said it does depend on the crowd size, stage access. But one good thing about on cam on a stick and one roving is even if I get the other camera guy in the shot I can just cut to the other cam in post. It's a pain but no one wants to watch a "vhs" style home video with just one camera angle right? That's the whole reason for using more than one cam. Althought I just bought the movie Rude Boy (the Clash) and heard that some or all of the concert footage was with only one cam going so what do I know. That spider pod you had, whould that work with a super 8 only having at the most 3min 20sec?

The spider pod just elevates you about two feet higher than everybody in the room, but you are stationary. The one camera technique only is somewhat popular if you able to shoot more than one show and the performers all wear the same outfits for every show and do the same songs in the same order. Just pick a different spot for each performance. This technique works remarkably well if the music is pre-recorded but it may be problematical when everything is live because no two shows are the same and neither is the pacing or timing.

Leigh Goldstein · November 20, 2007

I think you can still find old sound film, plus I have read about some company adding the magnetic stripe to new stock.

Jim Carlile · November 21, 2007

To answer your original question. The door has to be closed, because as you close it, the soundhead assembly is raised into place. Unless it is in place and the door is closed, the camera will not run if it "detects' a sound cartridge. The amp won't run either.

This is a failsafe way of preventing jamming. If you kept the door open and watched a sound cartridge run for fun, which is what the camera thinks you're doing, it would eventually jam at the lower opening. It needs to be threaded and guided down there.

The reason why the sound assembly is withdrawn when the door is open is because if it was already in place, you couldn't load the film. It wouldn't fit.

Your solution is to keep the detector pin depressed while the door is closed. But that might be tricky to do. It will also wear down your sound head and rollers (so what, but you might find some sound cartridges some day...)

Silent "sync" filming is possible with that camera, either throught the 1/f flash jack, or the tone generator, but you cannot use the internal amplifier to do so.

One more problem-- the voltage output from the moni earphone jack will overload the line-in of any recorder. That may or may not cause distortion.

Edited November 21, 2007 by Jim Carlile