Arri 2C

[Rolfe Klement]

I see speeds of up to 80fps with a CE base and 2 x 12V batteries - but I have heard that going anywhere over about 40 fps on an Arri 2C is unstable - is this based on a steadiness test where you rewind the footage and reshoot - then playback and check bounce around - I would assume with single claw feeding - that you would get steadiness issues irrespective of running it through the gate only once.

 

What would be the fastest anyone has run footage through a 2C - and how stable was it vs a stability test - the reason I ask is I shoot Indie dance things and having 50fps would be nice....

 

thanks

 

Rolfe Klement

www.creativesunshine.com

[David Mullen ASC]

I did a lot of 60 fps shooting with my AC's personal Arri 2C and the footage looked fine. Steadiness tests showed that the camera was nearly equal to the pin-registered cameras we were using. Steadiness problems are usually only really obvious when doing composite effects like titles over picture, or doing blow-ups. For your average slo-mo shot in a sequence, it would have to be pretty bad to be noticeable.

[Dan Salzmann]

I second David Mullen on this. These cameras with the CE base are workhorses and I have done slo-mo that came out just fine.

[John Sprung]

I was told long ago that the trick to steadiness on the 2C is to get the bottom loop exactly right. It's supposed to just barely kiss the bottom side rails of that chromed sheet metal piece in the bottom of the body as you inch it. The theory is that this affects the dynamics of stopping the film at the end of the pulldown.

 

I never tested that theory, I always just went with it. Does anybody know if that's real or just an old AC's tale?

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Sam Wells]

My recollection is that it pretty much does that if you load with the preset loop at - memory memory where R U ? - 54 perfs ??? (OK I just cheated and looked it up).

 

Any smaller you're PDC to the buckle trip.

 

The street wisdom was the 2C was less steady *undercranked* but I'd be inclined to believe it's more likely undercranking just revealed the limitations of 2C registration (which can be quite good obviously).

 

It was common to use a freeze frame in "optical post" on TVCs as opposed to all of a lockup if graphics etc were to be supered, mortice made and so on.

 

-Sam

[Patrick Neary]

Hi-

 

As I understand it, there was a special high speed gate for 2-C's that allowed 80fps.

 

I also recently did some 60fps stuff for a short, and the footage was quite unstable, almost unusable, really. But that may have just been that particular rental we were using (in fact, if I remember right, the good folks at Utterbach warned us about going above 40-50fps- serves me right!)

[Rolfe Klement]

The feedback has been great - I will be in LA in November for 2 weeks and am looking at advice on the testing procedures for buying a camera

 

- for example in the UK I would go to the good folks at ICE (if I was buying from them) - shoot a test ( with my stock often a short end) of their charts, film loaded in their tent - with their lens - walk around the parking lot doing speed tests , shooting birds and skies etc (not much use:-) then I would get drop it off at the overnight bath at Soho Images - pick it up the next day - go back to ICE and use their projector to check - haggle price

 

So I need to be prepared - what do I need to take with me (tent etc) and where are good places to get stock (shorts ends as well) and a good place to get a quick dev of the neg - and how much price negotiation are people open to.

 

I will be in the Hollywood area (dealing with the main shops, Otto Nemenz etc)

 

thanks

 

Rolfe Klement

www.creativesunshine.com

[David Mullen ASC]

I think the best advise is to shoot a steadiness test at 60 fps since some 2C's are better than others.

[Adam Frisch FSF]

What's much more serious on the 2C's is their internal flaring. For some reason, incoming hotspots bounce off the mirror at certain angles and flicker the film. It can be very serious. If I recall the tests I saw correctly, it's mainly on the right side. I hear this is due to the removals of the baffles across the ground glass. It was particualarly visible on the SL Cine lightweight rebuilds. So however tempting - don't remove the baffles across the ground glass!

[Christian Appelt]

If your budget permits it, better try to get an Arri III instead of a IIC. It was made for HS and it has a register pin, so you'll be on the safe side. Running a IIC faster than 35 fps seems to me like putting a Porsche engine into a Volkswagen Beetle. Oh, and if you decide to shoot HS with a IIC, don't forget to protect your ears... :)

 

A friend of mine had to do some HS shooting for which he adapted an old ArriTechno which is, IIRC, made for up to 90fps. They are sometimes cheap for sale on eBay, but I have no idea whether that would fit your project, just an idea.

[Rolfe Klement]

I have always been into the test - only way to really check anything-

 

As regards camera choice - weight is a big concern which is pushing me in the direction of a good 2C rather than a 1st gen 35-3 (but who knows) - and price ( I am assuming I can get a PL Hardmount with CE base for $8k ish - whereas 12k is a starting price for a decent 35-3) and it is a difficult camera to get into handheld - also - any more money and I can't justify the purchase

 

But as regards some of my earlier questions re testing kit in LA

 

what do I need to take with me (tent etc) and where are good places to get stock (shorts ends as well) and a good place to get a quick dev of the neg - and how much price negotiation are people open to...

 

thanks

 

Rolfe Klement

www.creativesunshine.com

[Guest lumisphere]

I read that ARRI 2B has variable shutter....does the ARRI 2C have variable shutter? if none, can it be modified?......Where can I find a 2C with variable shutter?.......Can it also be rigged as a sound camera?.......I also noticed the eyepiece on 2C is a bit of a hassle operating....I read about Jurgen's swing able eyepiece tap combo. How much is that rig and is it good? is it bright enough?

 

Thanks.....just enquiring about 2C, cuz it seems like a good camera to have.....it seems fun....

[Sam Wells]

A 35-2CB/V had a variable shutter.

 

-Sam

[Christian Appelt]

I read that ARRI 2B has variable shutter....

 

Not necessarily.

 

 

does the ARRI 2C have variable shutter?

 

Some have, some don't.

 

Can it also be rigged as a sound camera?

 

Yes, if you put it in a special blimph housing made for Arriflexes. There were two models, one for 400ft./122m mags, one for 1000ft./305m mags. Sometimes they can be found on eBay or as used equipment from dealers.

This makes the Arri2C extremely heavy, you will definitely need a heavy tripod and a dolly to support the camera/blimp unit. Operating is more difficult, so it slows down work.

 

Thanks.....just enquiring about 2C, cuz it seems like a good camera to have.....it seems fun....

 

Both the IIB and the IIC (there was a IIIC, but it's quite rare) are good, simple cameras. Like any camera, they need basic maintenance like correct lubrication, correctly collimated lenses and regular cleaning.

 

I have seen many newbies having trouble because they thought that they could grab an Arriflex that didn't run for 20 years, slap some ancient lens bought on eBay on it and shoot film.

Then they blamed problems in focus, resolution, steadiness on the camera, "it's just dated, I need a new Moviecam/Arricam/Panaflex" and so on....

 

If you buy an Arriflex from a dealer who can service it, keep it clean and do the usual maintenance and service, it will run dependable. With decent lenses it will give you excellent 35mm footage. Personally, I don't think the trouble getting it silent is worth it, either get an Arri BL1 or use the 2C and dub the sound.

 

Don't know about the fun factor, any camera is just a tool for shooting things that (hopefully) will be fun to other people... :rolleyes:

[Mitch Gross]

The 2c cannot use 1000' mags, only 400' or 200'.

[Rolfe Klement]

what are the format options and costs to get S35, Anamorphic and 3 perf for the arri 2C

 

thanks

 

Rolfe Klement

www.creativesunshine.com

[Max Jacoby]

Anamorphic is just a question of a viewfinder switch that is availble on some conversions.

 

I have used the 2C with Super 35, on the other hand there aren't any 3perf movements available.

[Christian Appelt]

To use anamorphic lenses, you will propably need a IIC that has been converted to PL mount. Most modern anamorphics are in PL mounts, and I never have been able to get a decent set of older anamorphics for my IIB (in standard Arri mount).

 

If you want to own anamorphic lenses instead of renting them, I recommend getting a Konvas or Kinor camera because good anamorphics are available in their OCT-19 mount more easily. (Of course it depends on the type and duration of your production, if you're shooting a small feature for a few weeks, it may be better to rent state-of-the-art anamorphics like Hawk or JDC that fit your Arriflex.)

[andrewbuchanan]

what are the format options and costs to get S35, Anamorphic and 3 perf for the arri 2C

 

I have heard of technoscope 2 perf Arri 2C cameras. Which I think is a half sized gate that shoots a scope picture on half a frame of 4 perf 35mm. I don't know anything about movement, lenses etc, but some epics like THX1138 and Leoni's Westerns were shot in this format (or sho I have read). I wonder why you don't hear about technoscope anymore. Seems like a good idea... normal lenses and uses half the film stock of regular 35mm?

[Christian Appelt]

I have heard of technoscope 2 perf Arri 2C cameras.  Which I think is a half sized gate that shoots a scope picture on half a frame of 4 perf 35mm.  I don't know anything about movement, lenses etc, but some epics like THX1138 and Leoni's Westerns were shot in this format (or sho I have read).  I wonder why you don't hear about technoscope anymore.  Seems like a good idea... normal lenses and uses half the film stock of regular 35mm?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Please use the "search" option, type in "2-perf" or "Techniscope", then you will find numerous discussions on 2-perf/Techniscope. B)

Or click here:

list of Techniscope discussion on the forum

[andrewbuchanan]

Please use the "search" option, type in "2-perf" or "Techniscope", then you will find numerous discussions on 2-perf/Techniscope.  B)

 

Done and done... but that leaves one question... why isn't it used much anymore? It sounds like a good idea (at least for indys). With new lenses and slower stock, I bet it could look quite nice.

[John Sprung]

... why isn't it used much anymore? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was getting started about the time two perf was on the way out. I saw a couple two perf shows in production, and it did look a whole bunch better than 16mm for not much more money.

 

As to a theory for its demise, well, here's mine: Its only reason to exist was low budget features. Rental houses and labs that offered it would have as customers only those who had very little money and a high risk of going broke -- or being just plain crooks -- and therefore not paying their bills. (Naming no names, but a certain producer from that era springs to mind.) So, the rental houses and labs came to the conclusion that that market niche was perhaps not a smart place to be doing business. Again, that's just my theory.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Christian Appelt]

Some reasons:

 

1. Camera choice is limited. Even in the 1960s when Techniscope was widely used, most shooting was done with Arriflex IICs, Eclair Caméflex CM3s and a few blimped Mitchells were used. Modern production cameras from Arri or Moviecam are usually not available converted to 2-perf. Either you shoot silent (MOS) and dub your film afterwards, or you have to put your noisy camera in a huge & heavy blimp housing.

 

2. Negative processing is possible at any lab, but only a few labs can provide you with 4-perf anamorphic dailies, and any savings at the shooting stage will be eaten up by the additional cost. (However, 2-perf negative can be telecined if you are happy with video dailies.)

 

3. Negative cutting gets more complicated, some frames of every shot will be lost, and Keycode use gets more complicated or impossible.

 

4. Some old Techniscope movies look great, but they were taken on 1960s/1970s low speed negative. If you start using high speed stock, it becomes really hard to maintain good image quality.

 

5. You will save money on negative stock, but as soon as your film is to be released, a costly optical printing operation (or Digital Intermediate) treatment is necessary, and the saving is severly reduced.

 

I like the idea and principle of Techniscope, but its use is very limited. In my opinion, Techniscope does makes sense

 

- when you have a lab near you that can handle it;

- when you either own a converted 2-perf camera or can use one cheaply;

- when you try to gamble by shooting your 2-perf movie, restrict yourself to video postproduction and hope for a distributor to pay for the printing to 4-perf;

- when the longer running time of standard mags help your project (like filming the Titanic or doing extremely long takes)

 

However, if you have to buy a camera or have an existing one converted, maybe buy first-rate lenses to get the most out of the smaller image, you might as well shoot anamorphic, get the option to use high speed film (greater image area=less magnification) and a better quality on large screens. And you can strike a simple contact print from your cut negative to send your film out to the festival circuit.

 

So while Techniscope is a good thing, you should determine if it fits your project and will really save you money in the end. Which, of course, depends on the type of film you're doing and the circumstances under which you shoot it. ;)

[Guest lumisphere]

Can the 2C be modified so it has variable shutter? and who does it and at what cost?

[Rolfe Klement]

I know of one model and I don't know how easy it would be to convert - the model is 35-2CB/V. The 2C has a weird butterfly type shutter (check out Jon Fauers Arriflex book ) for info on it

 

thanks

 

Rolfe Klement

www.creativesunshine.com