Film not advancing

Douglas Hunter · February 5, 2008

Greetings all,

I wanted to see if other folks have had similar difficulty with the newer film stocks. Let me point out that I am aware of reasons why some cameras have difficulty advancing the Velvia 50D and Kodak 100D. This being the case my question is not about the cause of the problem but rather, I'm interested in learning how wide spread this difficulty is among super 8 shooters and the nature of the difficulty folks are having.

Both my 814xls and my Beaulieu 5008s have had some trouble with these stocks resulting in missed shots. It appears that either the pull-down claw engages the film at the beginning of the shot and is fine for the entire shot OR it does not and the camera runs without advancing the film. So far I have not seen an example of the claw missing the film mid shot.

So, how many Canon and Beaulieu users are having the same experience? What about folks with other cameras?

Edited February 5, 2008 by Douglas Hunter

John Hyde · February 6, 2008

Actually, I have had better transport results with Velvia and 100D super 8 than the Kodak color stocks. I have found that the cart treatments from Spectra make the film run smoother, quieter with less strain than the other stocks.

Have you recently tried the same test with color Kodak film to see what would happen? I suggest color film (64T) because it is a bit thicker, putting it more on par with Velvia and 100D.

Michael Lehnert · February 6, 2008

By Kodak color film, do you mean E-64 reversal either/or Vision2 neg stocks as well?

Paul Ash · February 6, 2008

Greetings all,

I wanted to see if other folks have had similar difficulty with the newer film stocks. Let me point out that I am aware of reasons why some cameras have difficulty advancing the Velvia 50D and Kodak 100D. This being the case my question is not about the cause of the problem but rather, I'm interested in learning how wide spread this difficulty is among super 8 shooters and the nature of the difficulty folks are having.

Both my 814xls and my Beaulieu 5008s have had some trouble with these stocks resulting in missed shots. It appears that either the pull-down claw engages the film at the beginning of the shot and is fine for the entire shot OR it does not and the camera runs without advancing the film. So far I have not seen an example of the claw missing the film mid shot.

So, how many Canon and Beaulieu users are having the same experience? What about folks with other cameras?

Aaaargh no! I am about to plunk down a HUGE amount of cash (well, certainly in soft-currency terms) on a serviced, ready-to-fly 4008ZMII. Should I be afraid?

And is there any way of solving the problem?

PK

Michael Lehnert · February 6, 2008

Damn, this thread is already irresponsably out of hand by its third post.

First: I have never encountered any transportation problems in around a dozen Super 8 cameras using nearly all film stocks (excluding the Velvia 50 as Cinevia by GK-Film, which strangely enough could never be delivered..., and was hence duely discontinued).

Second: I have never heard of film transportation from family, friends and colleagues in various cameras, all CLA'd, using film stocks as diverse as the Vision2 and X-series, as well as the E-64 and E-100 as supplied by Wittner Cinetec.

Third: I have read about problems with transportation of the Velvia 50 as Cinevia supplied by GK-Film. That was due to packaging issues at that company. I have not heard or encountered of transportation issues with the Velvia 50 as supplied by Spectra in the USA

Fourth: There are repeately and trustworthy reports that film stocks offered by Pro8mm, which are not related to film stock offered by Kodak or Spectra or Wittner, let alone Cinevia GK-Film, suffer from serious film transportation troubles. This is due to 35mm film stock being loaded into some cartridges or emulsion being not as pliable though as thin as 16mm film stock normally used for confectioning S8 custom ware

Could I ask the OP to please precise the troubles and issues and especially the film stocks he wishes to debate with exact terminology and not just as "Kodak color film stock" or "newer film stock" ('new' is rather relative for a 50 year old format) , which is as close as saying "Did you have the same problem digesting vegetables at one of those parties lately?"

Could I also ask to avoid alarmist posting with vague presumptions that would merit serious pre-explanation to create a meaningful discussion and written exchange here?

I am leaning too far out of the window here as I am not a moderator, but really, lads and lasses, let's keep it professional and take the time to elaborate on problems as exact and precise and if possible with sources, at least some hints other than "as everyone knows..." ? Nope, I don't know what everyone knows, and never will! Please assist me! That's why I hang out here!

Paul: What film stock do you intend to shoot your documentary on? That is important to know and inform us here before you panic, because as long as you stick to conventional ware (which includes Kodak's Vision2, BTW), you should have any problems, certainly not with Kodak reversal film stock.

Where is your 4008 coming from? If it is in very good, even CLA'd condition (I remember you e-mailed me that it was from Eire, serviced by Björn himself) then it will work absolutely fine. YOu also got another cam... Bauer A 512 I remember. That one I also never had any problems with.

-Michael Lehnert

Paul Ash · February 6, 2008

Paul: What film stock do you intend to shoot your documentary on? That is important to know and inform us here before you panic, because as long as you stick to conventional ware (which includes Kodak's Vision2, BTW), you should have any problems, certainly not with Kodak reversal film stock.
Where is your 4008 coming from? If it is in very good, even CLA'd condition (I remember you e-mailed me that it was from Eire, serviced by Björn himself) then it will work absolutely fine. YOu also got another cam... Bauer A 512 I remember. That one I also never had any problems with.

Hi Michael,

Sorry about injecting a note of panic into the debate. Actually, the moment's passed (although I did wonder on my trip to the bank whether I'm being a lunatic by buying a ZMII).

The first part of the film was all shot on K40 (12 years ago) and I was hoping to retain that Kodachrome effect, so I'd like to use E64. However, having chatted to you, I am also keen to try one of the negative stocks, although this is going to blow further big holes in my budget.

But I intend to make this camera work for its dinner and anticipate running all the various films through it at some point.

Ja, second camera is a Bauer A512. No problems or fears there.

Thanks again for the help and advice

Paul

Douglas Hunter · February 7, 2008

Could I ask the OP to please precise the troubles and issues and especially the film stocks he wishes to debate with exact terminology and not just as "Kodak color film stock" or "newer film stock" ('new' is rather relative for a 50 year old format) , which is as close as saying "Did you have the same problem digesting vegetables at one of those parties lately?"

You REALLY need to read more carefully before you reply:

1) The point of my first post was NOT to debate anything! And a debate is not implied at all in my post. My post was a REQUEST FOR INFORMATION about other peoples experiences with specific products, that's all.

2) I did not use the term "kodak color film stocks" yet it appears that your are attributing said phrase to me.

3) I did use the phrase "newer stocks" but since I also identified them I doubt many folks see the same ambiguity that you do.

. . . lads and lasses, let's keep it professional and take the time to elaborate on problems as exact and precise and if possible with sources, at least some hints other than "as everyone knows..." ? Nope, I don't know what everyone knows, and never will! Please assist me! That's why I hang out here!

AGAIN as I stated in the OP, the point of this thread is NOT to discuss the causes of the problem. What part of "my question is not about the cause of the problem" don't you understand?

If you do not know what I am talking about you do not need to reply, or you could ask a question, but your self appointed thread police stance is not helpful or welcome. There was nothing unprofessional about my post.

If you would like a thread about the causes of the problem, feel free to start a new one on that topic where you can "please precise the troubles" and "take the time to elaborate on problems as exact and precise" all you want . You do not need to thread jack this one.

GETTING BACK ON TRACK:

John, thanks for the comment, what cameras were you using? When you say "treatment" do you me the lubrication of the carts? I know that Spectra put time and effort into really getting that right.

To answer your question I have shot 1 roll of 64T, 1 roll of Tri-x, 12 rolls of 200t, through these cameras with no film advancing problems. I should also say that I was warned about the potential for transport problem before purchasing the Velvia and 100D so there is no sense of being misled or anything like that on my part. I love these stocks and will continue to use them, Its just a bit unnerving to be loosing takes.

Douglas Hunter · February 7, 2008

Aaaargh no! I am about to plunk down a HUGE amount of cash (well, certainly in soft-currency terms) on a serviced, ready-to-fly 4008ZMII. Should I be afraid?

Should you be afraid? I don't know, seeing how many people respond to this thread may help answer that question. I don't think the problem is that wide spread but if a few people reply we may be able to see a pattern. For all I know 4008s do not have this trouble. But even if they do, its still worth using these stocks, because they are really, really beautiful. Personally, I think they are head and shoulders above everything else out there. That's one of my motivations for asking, if there are cameras that handle the stocks better than others I would like to get one!

John Hyde · February 7, 2008

Indeed, I too like the integrity of Spectra and their staff. The Velvia and 100D I transfer there has provided some of the best results I have ever gotten in S8.

To answer your question, I use a canon 1014XLS and Nikon R10 as primary cameras (when shooting S8). I also use a Minolta XL 401 on occasion. All cameras have transported Velvia and 100D consistently to the end with no lost shots. This has been the case over the course of the past year or so (since they have been applying light lubrication to the carts).

I am also familiar with older Beaulieu cameras. Film can sometimes run out without the shooter hearing a speed shift from the motor indicating end of roll. I have lost many shots (all film types) with an older 4008 I once owned. Could this be a possible problem?

Still though, you should have no problem with your Canon 814XLS (a really nice camera). Perhaps weather could be a factor.

Michael Lehnert · February 7, 2008

You REALLY need to read more carefully before you reply:

Not only did I read your post quite carefully, I also anticipated consequential problems readers might get from reading it as it stands in your formulation; BTW before Paul Ash posted, and his overlapping post proved my fear right.

This is a forum. Debating is what happens in a forum, which is also what you or anyone else invites by posting here. This is not a semantic egg-head point I make, but a fundamental use-of-language issue.

I replied to your raised points in more precision than you could have hoped for, esp. regarding the film stocks you mentioned and purchase origination and cameras used, i.e. including their original provenience and sales channel! The latter two crucial aspect which you totally left outside of consideration:

E-100 and V-50 are not original-supplied film stocks but come from various packaging backgrounds. Using them is hence inately a problem, actually, and apart from Spectra who has an excellent track record at supplying them with 0 faults (which is great for US customers, not good for overseas users re shipping costs etc.), E-100 is supplied by at least 3 companies with different packagers, and V-50 is also coming from 3 different companies, with the one from the original vendor, GK-Film, requiring the distinction into three production batches that suffered from varying issues re. film transportation.

Although people talk about "E-100" and "V-50", they should actually be talking about 6 different film stocks which suffered from very different issues through different batches over the past nearly 3 years! I am sorry, Douglas, but I think you will understand why precision is key if you want to hear anything meaningful about any of that. And that was what my post is all about! Reminding this! If you feel personally attacked, then I apologise, as this wasn't my intention, but I maintain that we really have to be more responsible how we raise issues here.

When discussing problems with the "two" film stocks that are not coming from Kodak (as is "original" - leaving Pro8mm stock out of consideration here, which you might or might not want to have, either; it's unfortunately unclear!), not asking or requiring or providing info about what suppliers or sales channels they came from makes any exchange of information ultimately pointless, as nothing can be truly clarified.

I acknowledged in my post that I thought myself that I was leaning wide out of the window with the forcefulness of my post, and I apologised for unintentional personal attacks toward you, but I think my points are more than legitimate and should be acknowledged more deeply than has happened so far in this thread.

Happy posting & reading.

-Michael

Michael Lehnert · February 7, 2008

I am also familiar with older Beaulieu cameras. Film can sometimes run out without the shooter hearing a speed shift from the motor indicating end of roll. I have lost many shots (all film types) with an older 4008 I once owned. Could this be a possible problem?
Perhaps weather could be a factor.

As long as you aren't shooting in Antarctica at -40°C or in the Malayan jungle with 99% humidity, weather isn't as aggressive a often believed towards cine-film (influence on battery power supply is something different, though, which can lead to indirect problems: read this thread here or just this post in it here if in a hurry)

Using a 4008: when you mention that you lost shots as you did not hear an audible speed shift from the motor when the cartridge reached its ending point, having exposed all film in the cartridge, did you see any difference in motion or not regarding the film running indicator at the lower middle of the viewfinder?

Re: E-100 as Wittnerchrome 100 supplied by Wittner Cinetec: some users reported issue that automatic shut-down function on their cameras did not work; a function which automatically deactivates the motor of the camera when the cartridge has reached its "exposed" end, either via using the electric conduction of the film emulsion to open or close a contact (hence stopping the motor) or a friction sensor coupled to the pull-down claw mechanism that is triggered when the claw is effectively no longer transporting film when the stamped-out on the perforated side of the film at the end of the cartridge is reached. This ending point of S8 cartridges is included in the SMPTE guidelines for S8 and is cpmplied by Kodak, but some re-packagers did not have the technology for stancing-out these parts from their raw film stocks.

Wittner, however, has recently vowed to include these after pressure from German S8 users, and the next batch of E-100 supplied by Wittner (and I believe Spectra, too, as they cooperate on that) will include the SMPTE-compliant shut-off coding.

Francis Kuhn · February 7, 2008

So, how many Canon and Beaulieu users are having the same experience? What about folks with other cameras?

Hi Douglas,

I had a problem about two years ago with the first ?test? batches of Fuji 64T stock I got from Spectra. I ran two carts through my Beaulieu 4008 ZMII and it would not advance smoothly on some takes. At one point the claw tore through the sprocket holes. I believe Doug and Jerry at Spectra told me they were working on a cartridge treatment that would reduce friction, helping the film run smoother. I have not tried the new cartridge.

BTW, you?re not the only one who?s noticed how some people on this forum just like to hear themselves talk.

Fran

Douglas Hunter · February 7, 2008

To answer your question, I use a canon 1014XLS and Nikon R10 as primary cameras (when shooting S8). I also use a Minolta XL 401 on occasion. All cameras have transported Velvia and 100D consistently to the end with no lost shots. This has been the case over the course of the past year or so (since they have been applying light lubrication to the carts).

I am also familiar with older Beaulieu cameras. Film can sometimes run out without the shooter hearing a speed shift from the motor indicating end of roll. I have lost many shots (all film types) with an older 4008 I once owned. Could this be a possible problem?

Still though, you should have no problem with your Canon 814XLS (a really nice camera). Perhaps weather could be a factor.

John, thanks for the input and the specifics about your cameras. As for the end of the roll problem. I use slates and camera reports (most of the time) these show missing shots from various positions in the rolls.