Which Russian Zoom is the Sharpest?

Dave Cramer · September 5, 2008

Hi Ian,

"I then applied a couple of tweaks to boost the contrast in a couple of shots when the footage reached me".

Any idea which shots needed these tweaks? I'm curious if you were doing this more on footage shot with the 12.5 lens or the zoom?

"All of the colour footage on my Vimeo account and YouTube page are shot with the K3. There's a couple of extras on YouTube, but even on the 'high quality' setting the picture isn't as good as on vimeo. The B&W footage was shot on super-8 and again Tk'ed at Todd-AO. The traction engine film is the only one shot on Vivid 160T, the rest is on Kodak stock".

Thank you for those details about the footage. This helps people like me see how well the K-3, various 16mm stocks and lenses can look. So, do you have any plans on buying any other lenses? I personally would love an 85mm or a 135mm lens for the K-3 bayonet. How much did the telecine cost?

Thanks,

Dave Cramer

Dave Cramer · September 5, 2008

Hi Ira,

"I figure I'll go with reversal, 100D Ekt and Plus-X to start."

These two film stocks rock. 100D gives vivid, rich, gorgeous colors while not tweaking out skin tones too much. Plus X delivers nearly grain free contrasty images with clean blacks and bright whites. I used Yale labs out here in CA.

However, reversal is a more demanding stock to shoot. I've always been told it has a stop of latitude over and under, but unlike negative, I do not recommend over exposure. Also, where a negative never is projected, reversal was often used as both the original camera stock and what students and even old television stations in decades past edited on. It's great for experimentation.

"I'm in this for the fun. No ambitions of it going anywhere, so I figure with my level of experience (zero), I'm going to lean in a direction where I do a series of similar shoots with the same look and feel. In other words, TRY to develop a style that I can replicate time and time again".

I would get a color chart that has a grey scale on it to. If you shoot a color chart at the beginning of a roll you can color correct off of it for telecine. Even if you will never transfer to video, this chart gives you a great reference to judge the footage that follows it. A slate is also helpful, especially when shots end up looking alike, take after take. Camera reports, which are available for free from labs, even preprinted, are nice for keeping track of f stops, filters and lens choices.

Good Luck,

Dave Cramer

Ira Ratner · September 5, 2008

I shot exclusively with Ektachrome and Kodachrome in my 35mm still days (YEARS AGO), and here's the thing:

Yes, you don't have the latitude for reversal like you do with negative, BUT...

When you're shooting still, you start playing around with both aperture AND shutter speed to make yourself the next Ansel Adams. It's just a BALL shooting at F22 and at 1/30th, or a full second, or B and holding the shutter release cable button down until you feel it's down long enough --you name it.

Because what the heck for a still subject when you're on a tripod and just shooting one frame of 35mm?

With cine, it's only aperture you're controlling. So in a nutshell, if you're doing your meter readings properly, be it in-camera and/or handheld metering, things shouldn't go that wrong.

And it is CRUCIAL to learn the proper methods of metering, because that also affects how you light things.

You could light just perfect for your subject, but the background and everything else stinks. Or vice versa. But if you WANT the other to stink, then you're okay.

The main thing is, YOU have to control it. The film is what it is. It's not like it changes from roll to roll.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Ira Ratner

Ian Cooper · September 5, 2008

Any idea which shots needed these tweaks? I'm curious if you were doing this more on footage shot with the 12.5 lens or the zoom?

The footage from the wide matched the look from that with the zoom. I felt the transfer was a little 'flat' in places, to hold details in the brighter parts of the sky. I decided to sacrifice some of that sky detail by boosting contrast. It wasn't anything to do with the lenses, just taking a generic Tk and tweaking it a tad.

...So, do you have any plans on buying any other lenses? I personally would love an 85mm or a 135mm lens for the K-3 bayonet.

No more lenses for the K3 on the horizon. I've recently bought myself a nice Beaulieu R16, so I can see the K3 falling out of favour. Might even sell it on again in due course - see how things go.

...How much did the telecine cost?

At the time it was £0.21/ft + VAT (17.5%) for process & best light Tk to BetaSP + MiniDV copy. (They'd also do DigiBeta, but I can't easily handle that!). However, Todd-AO closed a month ago, merged with another firm and has now reopened as Soho Film Lab. The prices they are quoting me now are a couple of pence a ft higher for best light, and a MiniDV copy now costs extra as well. I've had a slightly cheaper quote from Technicolor (which will use either URSA or SPIRIT), but their minimum order value is slightly higher than S.F.L.

I suspect your best bet is to try dropping an email to a couple of labs in your own country to see what their prices are. I also tried getting a quote from Film Lab North here in the UK, but they would only quote me an hourly rate for a one light transfer, and they couldn't give much indication how long it would take to Tk 400ft - their rough guess put the price significantly higher than I was paying through Todd for a best light!! ...and the Todd price was fixed because it was based on the amount of material I'd sent rather than the time they spent working on it. That said, Film Lab North were very reasonable and helpful on another occasion about clip testing some very old stock I picked up cheap on EBay. It pays to compare prices from different places.

Ian.

Ira Ratner · September 5, 2008

By the way:

A major hurricane is headed my way (Ike), and I might die.

So if I do, it's been nice talking to all of you.

Dave Cramer · September 7, 2008

Hello,

Please be safe. If need be use your trusty K-3 to protect you-they are usually built very heavily. By the way, I have a Peleng 8mm, it's slow at 3.5 and hard to filter (it sees everything), maybe a 6"x6" filter? Do you think a rear filter would work?

May Ike leave you alone,

Dave Cramer

Dave Cramer · September 7, 2008

Hi Ian,

When you start shooting with your Beaulieu R16 please post some footage. I see these cameras come up for sale every so often.

I am an advertising student in San Francisco who, many years from now, plans to move to England to work in an Ad Agency there (probably London). So I have enjoyed talking with you and seeing 16mm footage of the U.K.

Thanks,

Dave Cramer

Ira Ratner · September 7, 2008

I will continue to live--for now, anyway.

Ike is staying south of us and we should only get the outer edge, if it stays on its current track. We got HAMMERED during Wilma three years ago, so we're not taking any chances. I'm headed out today to buy ice for my 5-day coolers anyway.

Dave, didn't your Peleng come with rear filters? Mine has three, and it's threaded back there for this very reason. A clear daylight, and a red and yellow for b&w. The trick is, try finding any OTHERS at this tiny size. (Do you remember the size offhand? Maybe these ARE still available for use on rangefinders like Leicas.) I guess you could also rig something to take the large Cokin squares, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

The other thing is, you mention it's slow at 3.5, but I don't foresee a problem shooting outdoors in Florida sun with 100D Tri or Ekt. However, every review that I've read for this lens said sharpness-wise, it rocks from 8 to 16, with one guy swearing up and down that 11 is the sweetest spot of all. It's been so long since I shot film, so a question:

Shooting at 24fps which is 1/60th under blaring sun with 100ASA, what kind of aperture do you think I'm looking at? I should be able to stop down enough, right? Or for the B&W, should I be looking at 200 Tri instead to be able to stop down that much? For my color reversal, I guess I'm stuck with Ext at 100.

Another thing I heard about the Peleng is that not only is flare such an issue that you have to be really careful, but with the sun at your back, your SHADOWS are a PITA to deal with, since the lens captures EVERYTHING. So I plan on buying two inexpensive rechargeable Black and Decker spots to fill the shadows.

I wanted to buy them yesterday, but brilliant me didn't make the connection between these lights and the needs of hurricane-terrorized Floridians. (Translation--sold out.)

My first testing shoot will be at the Loxahatchee Everglades Preserve, which is just a few miles from me. I figure the place will give me enough variety of panoramic (the preserve) and medium and closeup (nature) to put the equipment to the test. (Plus there's a bar not too far from the Park's entrance, which is always nice.)

I'm still looking at about 3 weeks before I start shooting. Still have to buy those lights, plus the film and a TRIPOD, and then I'm good to go. I don't want to make the mistake of buying a cheap one, especially with the gears on that K-3 cranking and having to manually hold the shutter button. THIS tripod will be built like a tank, just like the K-3 itself.

By the way:

Ever hear of famous New York adman Jerry Della Femina? I worked with him for 10 years before I moved to Florida, and still keep in touch with friends working with his current agency. I also go back every year for a reunion party that he throws for his ex-workers. A GREAT guy!!!

Edited September 7, 2008 by Ira Ratner

Dave Cramer · September 8, 2008

Ira,

I'm glad you are safe and hope that continues.

"Dave, didn't your Peleng come with rear filters? Mine has three, and it's threaded back there for this very reason. A clear daylight, and a red and yellow for b&w. The trick is, try finding any OTHERS at this tiny size. (Do you remember the size offhand? Maybe these ARE still available for use on rangefinders like Leicas.) I guess you could also rig something to take the large Cokin squares, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it."

I, kind of inherited my Peleng 8mm lens when a friends roommate moved out and left it behind. All it included besides the front and rear caps were a M42 to canon lens mount adapter. Thank you for letting me know about the rear thread-on filters. I like your ideas about using range finder filters as the Russians probably made sets for those. In old movie cameras, CP-16's and oddly some Panavision cameras, I remember a gel holder that was in front of the gate but behind the lens. Do you think this could work for the Peleng, say snot tape on a gel behind the back of the lens? Tracy Trotter used to do that technique, but supposedly with expensive women's panty hose from France, as a diffuser.

"Shooting at 24fps which is 1/60th under blaring sun with 100ASA, what kind of aperture do you think I'm looking at? I should be able to stop down enough, right? Or for the B&W, should I be looking at 200 Tri instead to be able to stop down that much? For my color reversal, I guess I'm stuck with Ext at 100".

At 50 ASA, at a 60th or 48th shutter, in bright sunlight I'm usually pulling f16. So, with 100 ASA I'm thinking f22, or f16 with an ND3 or equivalent filter since 100 ISO Ektachrome doesn't like over exposure (in my experience). 200 ASA Tri-X makes me wonder why you don't shoot beautiful, rich, Plus X, which I think is 50 ISO? If the 200 ASA stock was negative I'd just expose it at 100 to give me more detail in the shadows and a thicker neg for telecine.

"Another thing I heard about the Peleng is that not only is flare such an issue that you have to be really careful, but with the sun at your back, your SHADOWS are a PITA to deal with, since the lens captures EVERYTHING. So I plan on buying two inexpensive rechargeable Black and Decker spots to fill the shadows".

I think you might be able to make a make-shift lens shade. I remember when the 10mm Zeiss lens had just come out. We couldn't use our regular matte box; we had to use a special one that came with the lens. I think you could make a lens shade with black wrap, maybe like those weird ones that wide still lenses have? As far as the flash light, well I'm a little curious about runtime, color temperature, spread of the light and making sure the source doesn't flicker since motion picture cameras can see that. Just my two cents.

"I don't want to make the mistake of buying a cheap one, especially with the gears on that K-3 cranking and having to manually hold the shutter button. THIS tripod will be built like a tank, just like the K-3 itself."

I've been looking for a good, simple tripod that is sturdy. A few suggestions; the sub-$200.00 Chinese tripods are nice looking, but often crappy. A used bogen is often simple, sometimes hard to get parts for but usually good quality. Sachtlers, Vintens, etc. are pricey but obviously have there benefits. So here's my suggestion for cheap, strong and good: A Miller or O'Connor fluid head on an old wood tripod. For decades cameramen lugged around the heavy wood tripods, hence these old school tripods are often a bargain. Built for heavy cameras, these tripods can carry quite a load. Also, in Florida, a properly maintained set of wood legs won't suffer like metal ones.

"Ever hear of famous New York adman Jerry Della Femina? I worked with him for 10 years before I moved to Florida, and still keep in touch with friends working with his current agency. I also go back every year for a reunion party that he throws for his ex-workers. A GREAT guy!!!"

My teachers speak of him as a legend and I've often heard the name. I am amazed at all he has done in his life. Did you used to shoot for him? Have you read his books? I appreciated hearing about him as I am always trying to learn everything I can about the business.

Thank You,

Dave Cramer

Ira Ratner · September 8, 2008

I planned to shoot plus-x, and yeah--I want one of those wooden tripods. The problem is finding them.

Check out the beauty this guy made for a telescope, but his email is no longer active:

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~kmuldrew/woodworking/tripod.html

As far as Jerry goes, I worked in his print production department. The agency was first called Della Femina Travisano & Partners, and these were the days before computers. It was all paste-up, having dyes made from the chrome, and sending it to the engraver to have them do the separations and strip the whole job up.

His first book "From those Wonderful Folks who gave you Pearl Harbor" is an old one, and it's kind of a time-capsule glimpse into the business back then. It's not one of those preachy "how to do great advertising" books or anything. It's just filled with great old advertising stories. (Like you see in the series "MadMen" about New York advertising in the 50s.) His second book "An Italian Grows in Brooklyn" has nothing to do with advertising. Just a funny book about his childhood.

What makes Jerry so unique is that not only is he the nicest man on earth, but he just has great insight into how people think and feel--and also into how people THINK they think and feel. (There's a big difference.) The tragedy is that the ad business has changed horribly for the worse, and he's a man out of his time. Nowadays, clients are more interested in giving their accounts to agencies who can offer them the best media discounts. which means the giants like Omnicom. And make no mistake about it:

A big agency can never be as creative as a small one. It's just the nature of the beast. The smaller places used to be called "boutique" agencies, and THIS is where great creative stuff came from--and where clients were convinced to TAKE CHANCES. Nowadays, it's same old, same old.

Yeah, you see some awfully funny stuff out there. Some beautifully shot and directed work. But nothing new and ground-breaking has been done in 30 years. In fact, you'll see a lot of spots going back to old-fashioned 50s ANIMATION. We've just been dumbed down too much.

Now, I'm talking about the U.S. here! Europe is doing amazing things, and you're smart to think about working in London. (And if you can check, at one time, we were owned by WCRS, a large British ad firm.)

There's hardly enough room on this website for me to list all of the great things he did for the people who worked with him, how we felt/feel about him. And that's why I fly back every year for his party. Just to see him for an afternoon and BS about the old days.

Dave Cramer · September 9, 2008

Hi Ira,

"I planned to shoot plus-x, and yeah--I want one of those wooden tripods. The problem is finding them."

Ebay is where I have found bargin heavy tripods. I often type in wood tripod, or miller and good heavy duty tripods appear. The key thing is to get into a system (mitchel mount, the weird smaller mitchell mount, 75mm ball, etc) that works for you. The old school mitchell mount is the simplest and sturdiest mount. Unless you are only going to do lock off shots I would use fluid heads, not friction heads.

"Check out the beauty this guy made for a telescope, but his email is no longer active:

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~kmuldrew/woodworking/tripod.html"

That's a cool tripod. If you are that handy to build one of those then repairing or rebuilding an existing wood tripod won't be a problem.

"As far as Jerry goes, I worked in his print production department. The agency was first called Della Femina Travisano & Partners, and these were the days before computers. It was all paste-up, having dyes made from the chrome, and sending it to the engraver to have them do the separations and strip the whole job up.

His first book "From those Wonderful Folks who gave you Pearl Harbor" is an old one, and it's kind of a time-capsule glimpse into the business back then. It's not one of those preachy "how to do great advertising" books or anything. It's just filled with great old advertising stories. (Like you see in the series "MadMen" about New York advertising in the 50s.) His second book "An Italian Grows in Brooklyn" has nothing to do with advertising. Just a funny book about his childhood.

What makes Jerry so unique is that not only is he the nicest man on earth, but he just has great insight into how people think and feel--and also into how people THINK they think and feel. (There's a big difference.) The tragedy is that the ad business has changed horribly for the worse, and he's a man out of his time. Nowadays, clients are more interested in giving their accounts to agencies who can offer them the best media discounts. which means the giants like Omnicom. And make no mistake about it:

A big agency can never be as creative as a small one. It's just the nature of the beast. The smaller places used to be called "boutique" agencies, and THIS is where great creative stuff came from--and where clients were convinced to TAKE CHANCES. Nowadays, it's same old, same old.

Yeah, you see some awfully funny stuff out there. Some beautifully shot and directed work. But nothing new and ground-breaking has been done in 30 years. In fact, you'll see a lot of spots going back to old-fashioned 50s ANIMATION. We've just been dumbed down too much.

Now, I'm talking about the U.S. here! Europe is doing amazing things, and you're smart to think about working in London. (And if you can check, at one time, we were owned by WCRS, a large British ad firm.)

There's hardly enough room on this website for me to list all of the great things he did for the people who worked with him, how we felt/feel about him. And that's why I fly back every year for his party. Just to see him for an afternoon and BS about the old days."

I agree with you about the ads today. Sure, we now can openly sell Viagra and controversial subjects aren't off limits. Yet, you don't see work like Bernbach?s "Think Small" campaign these days. Besides financial deals I blame clients keeping accounts in almost constant review. I feel it's hard to do good work when you just got the account. I appreciated your input on England as it's hard for me to get that kind of information on the West Coast. Do you think I should have spec work in my book that is about European brands and ideas?

Back to camera supports. Do you have the K-3 hand grip and shoulder stock? I was wondering if they are worth getting. Also, do you think the other accessories are worth it for the K-3 such as the filters?

Thank you,

Dave Cramer

Ian Cooper · September 9, 2008

...Back to camera supports. Do you have the K-3 hand grip and shoulder stock? I was wondering if they are worth getting.

Yes, and no!

I have both the pistol grip and the shoulder stock. Although the vast majority of my footage is shot with the camera securely resting on a tripod, for handheld use I find it much easier and more comfortable to just hold the camera.

My left hand can cradle underneath, with a finger free to press the trigger, whilst my second hand can provide support at the top.

Also, do you think the other accessories are worth it for the K-3 such as the filters?

If the camera didn't come with the original filters, then I wouldn't bother looking for them. The closeup filter might be of use, but I haven't needed it yet. I use the Colin 'P' series filters to drop an 85 in front of the lens when using tungsten film in daylight, also an ND or a Grad can be of use to tame the light, or pull down the sky a bit.

Ian.

Ira Ratner · September 9, 2008

I wouldn't bother wit the original filters either--what's the point? I'm building a P arsenal so I can use them on al my lenses.

As far as the grip and stock, whatever Ian says. The thing is a b**** to handle with it, but I guess with practice, you can make it work. But I would get a different one.

I plan to be all on-tripod as well. With the cost of film, I ain't taking any chances.

As far as your career goes, if you're going into the video/film production end of it, you should have all styles on your reel. But the most important ones are the "standards," nothing too off the world. Especially if you're looking for an agency job, not an agency supplier.

I don't know how it is these days, but it was usually the agency's art director (the art director on that account) who made all of the decisions on which outside people to use. (Agencies don't shoot the stuff themselves.) So since this guy was responsible for a lot of bucks, they usually didn't take chances.

That's why it was so hard for outside guys to break in. The top proven names got the jobs time and again.

Rudy Velez Jr · July 22, 2013

If you have a bayonet K3 can you apply Kinor CX-2M mount lenses to it and vice versa?

Philippe Lignieres · August 11, 2013

I started to make an adapter for myself, but that has ground to a halt now I've bought a Beaulieu. The Arri lens is a plain cylinder with a groove at the end to hold the lens in position. The adapter for the K3 just needs to be a sleeve with 41mm inside diameter, 43mm outside diameter. Two lugs on the outside to register in the K3 bayonet, and some form of grub screw to drop into the groove at the rear of the lens to stop it falling out! The lens will still register against the original surface of the camera, so absolute precision in the adapter isn't essential for focusing. If you did make said adapter it would obviously open up a whole world of different zoom and prime lens options!

Hi Ian,

your Arri adapter idea for K3 bayonet is exciting. I hope you'll have the time and inclination to go to the development of a prototype, it could open a lot of opportunities at a fairly low price actually. Because the "philosophy" of the K3 is that it is a cheap, convenient and good quality camera. A "Jeep" somehow ...