Drawing the Line Between Responsibilities

[Annie Wengenroth]

I had no idea what category to put this topic into; I guess this one is close enough. If anyone wants to tackle this dilemma, feel free.

 

Okay...I just viewed the final cut of a video that I shot this weekend (the infamous handheld DVCPro shoot!). Well, the plus side is that the class liked the exterior scenes with the creepy blue lighting and the fog. The exteriors were part of a fantasy sequence and the interiors were the "reality" portion of the video.

 

Anyway, here's the problem with the rest of it: first of all, the director, who was also editing the piece (which kinda bothers me...), changed the interior scenes from color to black and white, in post.

 

Now, I didn't light the piece for black and white. I lit it with the intent that it would be shown in color. So I don't know how I feel about this. And I guess maybe it doesn't really matter how I feel because it's not my piece, but it just struck me as a decision that should have been made beforehand. And by the way, when I say *I* lit it, I mean it was just me, because he didn't have any grips or gaffers on hand, so that task fell to me. Thus, from the start of things, my job was actually divided between 3 things.

 

So there's that. Second of all, between the ever-changing script and shot list and the complete rearranging of several critical pieces of furniture, (resulting in me having to re-light the scenes and re-think the framing of many shots) I wonder now if I should have turned down the project. It was my first [more] official stint as a DP and it definitely left me thinking about how responsible I should hold myself for the end product.

 

I could easily claim that it wasn't my fault because the director was extremely disorganized, we had a rather measly crew, and the postproduction was half-assed and lousy.

 

And yet, do I really have the right to say this, or should I be kicking myself because there were things I could have done during production that would have made it better? I mean, what should my level of involvement have been here?

 

I think as a DP, I did a good job. But somehow the final product doesn't seem to justify the effort I made. A lot of my best shots were cut out entirely or thrown together awkwardly (and changed to black and white!). It was really disconcerting to watch the piece and think, "Gee...what happened?"

 

I realize that directors like this may just be par for the course, and I'm sure I'll get used to it and grow a thicker skin. But on the other hand, if there's anything I can do to save myself from similar situations further down the line, a few pointers would be great.

 

And yes, it was a student film in case you didn't read the description of the topic. (Gee who would have guessed, anyway! ha ha)

[Alvin Pingol]

>>the director, who was also editing the piece (which kinda bothers me...),

>>changed the interior scenes from color to black and white, in post.

>>Now, I didn't light the piece for black and white. I lit it with the intent that it

>>would be shown in color. So I don't know how I feel about this. And I guess

>>maybe it doesn't really matter how I feel because it's not my piece, but it just

>>struck me as a decision that should have been made beforehand.

 

The director, without a doubt, should have told you beforehand that he was planning on having that scene finish in B&W. Or, at the least, he should have informed you (and probably *asked* you) before he made the decision. Cinematography is mainly about lighting and composition. Color adds one more dimension to this. To have it removed or significantly altered without your, the DP, permission or consultation is certainly not a good thing.

 

 

>>I wonder now if I should have turned down the project. It was my first [more]

>>official stint as a DP and it definitely left me thinking about how responsible I

>>should hold myself for the end product.

 

You should be happy you did NOT turn down the project. You will never learn what it's like to do a project from start to finish as a DP, unless you actually *do* it. My first few experiences as DP working with other directors was insanely difficult and frustrating, but that's the only way one learns. I am glad I went through those experiences. I'm sure you're upset that a lot of your work did not come out as you had imagined it would, but this is simply one way for you to alter your working methods in the future to make sure something like this doesn't happen again.

 

 

>>And yet, do I really have the right to say this, or should I be kicking myself

>>because there were things I could have done during production that would

>>have made it better? I mean, what should my level of involvement have been

>>here?

 

What I do now is ask the director what he or she intends the picture to look like in the final, finished cut. For example, if he says he wants it to have a colder look compared to the rest of the film, I know that the image will be manipulated in post production. Most likely, desaturate, add some blue, etc. With that in mind, I know not to put too much importance in enhancing or featuring red details or ultra saturated colors while on the set, since I know they'd essentially be lost after grading.

 

I don't know if this helps you at all... but I just wanted to tell you that I've been through similar experiences, so I know how it feels to see your hard work (especially when on set, you in addition to lighting/camera, also have to lug around equipment!) turn out worse than you expected, through no fault of your own.

[GeorgeSelinsky]

If the director wants to run the footage upside down, skip printed, and bleach bypassed without having told you anything, it's not a smart decision on his or her part. However, the director does ultimately have the right to do whatever he or she feels is best for the film, especially if the finances are coming out of their pockets (which is often the case with a student production).

 

If the director is a nice person, ask if you can recut the footage yourself and keep it in color just to show as a demo reel of your cinematographic abilities (get the raw DVC footage if you can and do it yourself if you wish). Especially if you worked for free, the director SHOULD do this for you without complaint. I know I would do that for someone if they asked me (so long as I had a promise that this footage was not going to get pirated if it's for a commercial project). After all, the least the person can get out of working with me is something like a reel which they can use.

 

What concerns multi-tasking, hey, I do it all the time. Obviously the director should be helping or have people standing by to help you do your job. No director on a student crew has the right to stand around like some prince while everyone else does work. There's nothing that pisses me off more on a set than when I see slackers, I get violently mad. When I directed my student work I unloaded the equipment with my crew and helped pack it up during wrap. If there's a small crew then everyone is the crew, it's that simple. Either that or pay me extra.

 

- G.

Edited November 18, 2004 by GeorgeSelinsky

[Eric Steelberg ASC]

As unfortunate of an experience as it was, it is good practice for what tends to happen in the 'real' world. In commercials, my primary line of work, there have been times that what I shot or intended to shoot was radically changed in telecine. Of course if I would have known how it would have been changed, I could have done certain things to improve upon the 'new' look they decided to give the footage.

 

VERY frustrating...especially when you are in the room with the agency and director and have to be diplomatic about telling them how your intended look is THE RIGHT look. You need to remember that you get work from work so you need to let directors know that you'd appreciate any changes to the footage be run by you before they happen...just so you can make sure they get the best result.

 

Nothing is more frustrating and sometimes embarrasing when your footage comes back having been completely altered in post. A DPs job is to make sure their vision winds up in the final cut and these days with the power of post, we need to make sure we oversee every point of the post process in which our work can be butchered.

 

There is a bit of a 'movement' right now among the Big Guns in Hollywood to have post supervision (DI coloring) as a part of their contract (and to be paid for it.) (This is normally not the case.)

[Greg Gross]

Definitions:

 

DIRECTOR- He's the guy or gal who is responsible to the

PRODUCER for the making of the film(production).

Among other things he is the DP's boss. The director

may work in any fashion he or she wants. He or she

decides what photographic style the film will take.

 

DP- Is responsible for giving the director the photographic

style for the film, that has been decided. The DP will

probably decide on the exact framing,camera moves,

angles,lighting for the style,filtration. It is possible that

the director may be well informed about photography.

He may have been a DP in the past. Quite possible in

today's world. It is up to the DP to give the director the

kind of visual look that he or she wants. To ensure that

the director and the editor have all the footage they need

and that it is all usable.

Greg Gross,Professional Photographer

Student Cinematographer

Edited November 18, 2004 by pd170user

[Annie Wengenroth]

Thanks again for all your advice. I've decided to ask the director for the raw footage with the intent of having a more complete record of my work and of helping an editor friend get her chops in Avid Symphony. I'm sure he'll be cool with it. It's funny, at first I was pretty worked up about this, but the more times I tell the whole story, the harder I laugh. Needless to say, "Fix it in post" has now become a catchphrase among my friends for any mistake we make. ("Oh my god I burned dinner" "Fix it in post") I can also say that I really don't like the DVCPro, but that's another thread for another time.

[David Mullen ASC]

The problems never go away. I shot a feature (in film) and saw a cut of the movie: half the wide shots are gone, some of my best work, some entire scenes are cut together using only the close-ups, and a third of the movie will end up being an optical printer dupe because they have done so many speed changes to the footage, slowing it down, freezing frames, repeating shots, etc. Plus to make up for playing scenes too slowly on the set, they are resorting to jump cuts within the same shot to move the action along.

 

Kinda depressing.

 

When people dissect a movie's cinematography and ask why the DP lit a certain scene poorly, they should consider the possibility that they shot six scenes that day, rushed through the last scene on the day, and in editing, dropped every scene but the one that was rushed!

[Jason Maeda]

i agree that this was a great experience for you and there is no reason for you to regret your involvement. films are usually achieved through the combined effort of many people and whenever that is the case, a project is subject to a host of different hazards: death by committee, time consuming debate, and many more. skills you don't learn in film school, which are crucial in situations like these are the ability to follow the lead of your director, the ability to convince your director to follow your advice, the ability to lead a team that trusts you, etc. one of the shorts i shot a few years ago was completely re-envisioned during coloring much to my outrage. only later did i understand the direction the director wanted to go, when i should have understood it before shooting the piece.

 

hope this helps

 

jk :ph34r:

[Leon Rodriguez]

Annie,

You kinda get used to the fact they'll get creative with your work in editing because it's really theirs in a property sense. So I always ask before I'm hired if I can have a copy of the transfers on a Beta SP (because I've got an 1800 at home) as part of my hiring negotiation ritual. So then I've got a copy of what I shot to use for whatever non commercial purpose like a demo reel or whatever. They almost always say, "sure". It's worth it to me to even pay for the copy if the art direction is worth saving.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Quite - it's the director's movie, at the end of the day, so there's not a lot you can do about it. It's still a pretty moronic thing to do, thuogh, and should warn you of this director's practices in future.

 

As a coda to the DVCPRO shoot, I did a 21 hour day (including flying to Glasgow, setting up, etc) yesterday, for at least seven of which I was carrying a medusa of a camera based around my DVC-200 but including a Gigawave D-cam remote video link, additional power for it, lighting, extra cables... my shoulder is actually bruised. God knows what a similar setup would have been like on a 790.

 

Phil

[Guest dpforum1968]

Ah Ha! Gottcha Phil, you're working!!!

 

DC

[Michael Nash]

God knows what a similar setup would have been like on a 790.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Welcome to my world. DVW-709 with the audio module and a 3-stage matte box; or a BVW-600 with two wireless receivers and a brick, or a D-35/PVV-3 with a brick, wide-angle adapter, frezzi light and two wireless receivers. All setups hover close to the 30 lb. mark. Yeah, I'm not only sore but actually have abrasions on my shoulder at the end of a full day.

 

Yoga is a good thing....

[Michael Nash]

And getting back to the original post; keep in kind that this was a student film with a student director (AKA non-professional). You can expect things to go less-than perfectly when the people involved aren't yet experienced professionals, or possibly even mature adults. Chalk it up to experience. You now know what to look out for and how to handle it better or differently next time.

 

I shot a short film once for an NYU graduate who was surprised that the production went so smoothly, and that arguments didn't erupt all over the set. He thought that was normal based on his school experience.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

I don't generally find that arguments erupt all over student-run sets. Perhaps this is a cross-pond thing, but on the last couple of things I've done, we've been working far too impossibly quickly to have time for interpersonal rivalries.

 

And yes, DC, I worked, or was engaged in work-related travel, all last week and it'll be the same next week - just not on feature films.

 

Phil

[Sam Wells]

"I shot a short film once for an NYU graduate who was surprised that the production went so smoothly, and that arguments didn't erupt all over the set. He thought that was normal based on his school experience. "

 

:D

 

Exactly the case on the last Indie thing I lit. The young director was astonished !

 

-Sam

[shootist]

Take all this as a learning experience. Some projects will probably be much worse and hopefully some will be better.

 

This whole issue of who is da boss points to the reason you see many director/cameramen in commercial production. They get real control. It's also why you see directors picking the same guy to shoot their films, comfort factor.

[Ben Schwartz]

Hey Annie...I too am currently a film student...I've shot tons of short films over the last few years, some great, some mediocre, some appallingly bad. At this stage in our careers, there's no use getting worked up about clueless directors. It's all about the experience. If you learned just ONE valuable thing on that shoot, if you pulled just a few good shots for your reel...and I'm sure you did...than it was worth it.

 

Just my $.02.

[Annie Wengenroth]

It gives me such a warm and fuzzy feeling to see that people are still replying to this topic. I actually sort of forgot about it. I plan to contact the director and ask for a copy of the raw footage, then take it from there and see if there's anything worth putting on my reel. At the very least, I now know I'm capable of carrying around 17.5 pounds on my shoulder for an entire day and holding a DVCPro pretty damn steady (which is remarkable considering I don't even weigh 100 pounds). So there's always that!