daylight stock good deal, but is it worth it?

Joe Riggs · March 17, 2009

Hello,

I will be D.P. on a short 16mm exercise. This is my first time in that crew position and a buddy of mine is offering me a roll of 500 speed daylight stock for half the price. I would like to take advantage of that but I am a little hesitant because the scene is shot indoors. I am assuming I would need to either gel the lights or camera with a CTO? What would be the processes I would need to take to use that stock?

I am also concerned about the speed, the image will end up rather grainy correct?

Finally, if I decide to get indoor stock, which stock would you suggest? The scene is a melodrama, so I would want to have a classical clean 1940's or 50's style look.

Thank you

Adrian Sierkowski · March 17, 2009

The only 500D stock I know of is Fuji and yes, it's older and grainy. As for gelling etc, you'd have to use an 80A filter, which will eat a lot of your light, either in front of the camera or CTB on the lights (CTO will just make them all oranger!). Or you'd have to light with daylight units (HMIs/Kino Flows with 5600K tubes/5600K photofloods in practicle lamps)

Short answer, no, it's not what you're looking for exactly, though it could be massaged to work...

The sharpest stock to use would be Kodak 7212, 100T, however, lighting for that as a student can be problematic. A happier medium might be the 200T 7217, rated normally, but w/o knowing the location and your power/lighting capabilities it's hard to give more advice than that. I would over-expose any stock you choose by 2/3rds of a stop to tighten up the grain structure.

You should TEST these films first, and I would also throw in the new 7219 kodak stock, which is a 500T. I find it nice enough and grain less enough for my own purposes but I am not you.

Also, remember, when making a "look" for the film, what you are FILMING is equally as important to how you are lighting/framing. I mean that a white wall is a white wall. It is not a red wall, if you want a red wall, then paint it red. If you want desaturated pallets then use desaturated costumes/locations.

Fredrik Sundbye · March 17, 2009

I wonder do you have any money for grading? How about shooting tungsten light with a bit of CTB on the lamps (you can vary the degree of blue for different looks) and then correct the rest in the DI. Or maybee it´s just a style, that it is warm. The most important part is just because it´s 500 you´ll need to get som good exposure.

David Rakoczy · March 17, 2009

The scene is a melodrama, so I would want to have a classical clean 1940's or 50's style look. Thank you

I would shoot 7212 (100t)... then if I had to 7217 (200t). Under rating them 2/3s. You can gel any windows with Full CTO (or your preferred flavor for your given look) and shoot tungsten inside... gelling them as needed as well.

Scrape up the additional $75 and get a brand new roll of a one of these stocks that will deliver that clean look you want heading you into Color Correction :)

You may want to test (or go for) Classic Soft filters and the like..

Joe Riggs · March 18, 2009

It looks like we're going to be shooting on either Fuji 500D or Kodak 500T, and the former is looking more likely since it's practically in our possession. Our shoot is really soon and if we ordered, we would be cutting it super close.

Since the school doesn't have an 80a filter and may not have enough CTB gels (there is a chandler with 20 small lights in the scene). I was curious about just fixing the temperature during telecine. I spoke with a telecine operator and he made it sound like it would be no problem...from your experience is this accurate? Can they fix the color temp to such a degree that it looks like we had an 80a filter all along?

Is a CTB gel different from a blue gel?

David, it looks like I may have to relinquish that classical look, not just cause the film speed but I wanted to shoot B & W but the man in charge wants color. When you say "Under rating them 2/3s" does that mean under exposing?

Finally, I'd like to start a thread for this project where I could receive advice and be critiqued (i.e. posting location pictures, ideas for lighting setups and then finally the finished project), which part of the forum is most appropriate.

Thanks for all the advice

David Rakoczy · March 18, 2009

Order Overnight Delivery of this book Film Lighting

Yes CTB is a blue gel and it knocks anything it covers into oblivion.. esp in the 3/4 to Full CTB range.

Read the book.. then call me if you'd like. You have a lot to learn (quickly) regarding color temperature and stock balance.

Adrian Sierkowski · March 18, 2009

You can correct the color balance pretty well, it's easiest is it's all mis-balanced (e.g. not mixed daylight/tungsten).

Under-rating would be Over-Exposing. Negative film likes over-exposure, well not that it likes it, but it has more tolerance for it and it will tighten up the grain structure.

Beware of white walls/flat etc. The less scene contrast the more the eye will see grain, in my experience, because the eye looks for contrast changes.

Joe Riggs · March 29, 2009

Went to the telecine awhile ago, and viewed the footage, my first time as a DP was unfortunately anticlimactic. As expected, the footage came out pretty grainy, but what I didn't expect was a hair or something in the gate that not only obscured part of the frame but also caused a small but noticeable scratch throughout the footage. Unfortunately, I didn't know the "check the gate" protocol, it is clearly an invaluable part of the process, and I am astounded that our professor never mentioned it or showed us how.

Adrian Sierkowski · March 29, 2009

As important as the gate is it is also important to keep the mags themselves clean. I dunno if the hair caused the scratch or the scratch the hair. In my own experience, scratched film normally comes from mis-loaded Mags/wrong loops as the film comes out of the mag and "curves" to line up in the gate from scratching against something either in the path of the film (then carrying it into the gate where it gets stuck) or just friction up against the side of the mag.

Don't worry. I'm sure we've all been there at one point. I once had a scratch down the center of the film for a while mag for the whole important big scenes in a lo budget rap video.

It was when I first got my Arri so I wasn't sure the right "sound." needless to say, after that incident I quickly began to "listen" to the loops as well as check the gate when possible and clean the mag religiously!

Next time you'll be better. that's the way it goes.

Joe Riggs · March 30, 2009

As important as the gate is it is also important to keep the mags themselves clean. I dunno if the hair caused the scratch or the scratch the hair. In my own experience, scratched film normally comes from mis-loaded Mags/wrong loops as the film comes out of the mag and "curves" to line up in the gate from scratching against something either in the path of the film (then carrying it into the gate where it gets stuck) or just friction up against the side of the mag.
Don't worry. I'm sure we've all been there at one point. I once had a scratch down the center of the film for a while mag for the whole important big scenes in a lo budget rap video.

It was when I first got my Arri so I wasn't sure the right "sound." needless to say, after that incident I quickly began to "listen" to the loops as well as check the gate when possible and clean the mag religiously!

Next time you'll be better. that's the way it goes.

Thanks for the info, Adrian. How did you guys end up dealing with that scratch in the rap video, did you try to remove it somehow or add more in post to make it seem like an effect?