Film simplicity

[Steven Budden]

Oh, sunny day film friends, eh? We've got them all over now, don't we...

 

OK, you're willing to use Regular 16 format. Be aware that it's slowly becoming obsolete, but there's plenty of gear built for it and available for pretty cheap.

 

Projectors: RCA Pageant or Bell & Howell with OPTICAL sound, not magnetic. Magnetic read heads are useless, since nobody uses mag stripe film anymore. If you go to 16mm print you'll want to use optical (and mask off your S16 gate so you can run R16).

 

Viewers: Zeiss Moviscop type, $75 on eBay, or tabletop Moviola M79 - type viewer/editor.

 

Rewinds: Hollywood, Moviola, etc. Try to find a pair with long shafts and spare clutches.

 

Synchronizer: J&R, Moviola, etc. 3 gangs or more, at least 1 sound head.

 

Splicer: Tape (Ciro Guillotine type) or cement (Maier Hancok type).

 

Lab & Post House: someone local (preferred) and willing to talk to you (essential).

 

And you're probably going to need your NLE friends' gear, expertise, and advise eventually anyway, so don't lose your connections to them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks! I'll check those out and hopefully be able to begin soon. It seems like without sound I'd have a much easier time doing it at home.

 

So I should steer away from those little mansfield all in one editors? They have fold out reels and a little screen.

 

Thanks!

 

Steven

 

PS. I guess I live in the 16mm capital of the world. Anyway, I found a lot of places here working to keep it alive as an affordable, non lucrative art form. Most notably Canyon Cinema and Berkeley's Pacific Film Archive.

[Nate Downes]

The mansfield ones are ok, but very limited for heavy duty work. We're talking 100' loads at a time, no sound, etc.

[Steven Budden]

The mansfield ones are ok, but very limited for heavy duty work.  We're talking 100' loads at a time, no sound, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks!

 

Yeah, I've decided to go with the separate winders, viewer. Where does the sound sycnronizer go if I'm using winders and the viewer? Can sound be done in this simple fashion, with the moviescop and the rewinds? How could I set it up so that I heard what I was seeing at the same time?

 

I was watching some footage and Stan Brakhage editing and I liked his style, though it is soundless.

 

Thanks for all the help so far everyone.

 

Steven

[Steven Budden]

One more question...

 

It would be a good idea to have a 16mm projector on site while editing right? Because that tiny viewer won't give me any idea of whether the images have come out in complete focus.

 

Now I edit with mag sound and then have it converted to optical right? Would it be worthwhile to get a magnetic sound projector to watch projects that are not completed? Or just get an optical projector and project soundless when I first get the footage back to check it out, and then after I get the finished sections back with optical?

 

Also, which projector specifically? Any B & H filmosound? There are so many! But they are abundant and cheap.

 

Thanks!

 

Steven

 

PS. I was reading a book on editing 16mm film, and it said rushes come back and they aren't the quality the final will be. Is this still the case? How can you judge the quality if it is not up to what it will be?

 

This book is old but most of the newer books weren't as in depth on physical editing in various old school methods. I just purchased the new Cinematography so when that arrives hopefully it has some of the needed info.

[Steven Budden]

Also,

 

On projectors... is there a difference whether it is single or double perf film, or does it just roll the film through on the reels? Will a nineteen twentysomething filmo soundless do single perf?

 

Thanks!

 

Steven

[John Pytlak RIP]

Also,

 

On projectors... is there a difference whether it is single or double perf film, or does it just roll the film through on the reels? Will a nineteen twentysomething filmo soundless do single perf?

 

Thanks!

 

Steven

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Any 16mm projector that had optical sound could project both sound (perforated 1R-3000) or silent (perforated 2R-3000) film. For a really old MOS projector, you need to check if the sprockets had two sets of teeth.

[Robert Hughes]

I remember using my grandfather's 2-perf Bell & Howell projector from the 20's. It ate up my single perf student film. ouch.

[Steven Budden]

Alright,

 

I've got 2 moviola rewinds with long shafts, a moviscop viewer, some reels, a CIR guillotine splicer, Bell and Howell sound projector. I'm nearly ready to go. On the sound synchronizer... moviola, 4 gang with that box on the side (which they say is some kind of motor?) Will that work? I'd prefer a manual but this one is a good deal and guaranteed to work. Any suggestions on the synchronizer? Sound seems complicated but I need to start somewhere I suppose. If I enjoy the manual editing I can eventually get a moviola upright to complement the package. Or I'll slip into digital and fade away!

 

Also, I plan to practice on some random old films so I don't destroy my own hard one footage.

 

Thanks for the help! Much appreciated. I wonder where I can get old magnetic sound to play with?

 

Steven

[Steven Budden]

Also,

 

Are there different types of CIR guillotine splicers? some I see have two arms, blades on the right side and some have one? It looks like some have 2 cutters? Why two over one?

 

Steven

[Steven Budden]

Also, I was reading the new edition of Cinematography... why does it say the "serious filmmaker" will also have a flat bed or a moviola upright to work with, after the editing table (with the hand rewinds, moviola viewer, splicer, synchronizer)? Isn't that sort of going through the same thing twice?

 

I'm making an editing table. What can't be done on that? Maybe running at the correct speed... because it is had wound. I can do that in a projector though, right? Oh no, I'm getting overwhelmed again!

 

Steven

[David Mullen ASC]

Also, I was reading the new edition of Cinematography... why does it say the "serious filmmaker" will also have a flat bed or a moviola upright to work with, after the editing table (with the hand rewinds, moviola viewer, splicer, synchronizer)? Isn't that sort of going through the same thing twice?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The language is from the first edition -- I didn't really update the stuff about editing workprint.

 

No, those are different things you need. An editing machine is not the same thing as the stuff on an editing table (hand rewinds, gang sync, splicer, etc.) The book is just saying that you need a motorized viewer of some sort that plays the footage & sound rolls, locked together, at normal speed (i.e. 24 fps) for judging editing of sound and picture. It can be either an upright (Moviola) or flatbed (Steenbeck, etc.) The small manually cranked viewer like a Moviescop on an editing table is less necessary. I never used one of those but I assume you could do your syncing with one by marking the frame with the clap and marking the frame on the mag with the clap, etc. But you can do that on the upright Moviola or flatbed.

 

I mean, I suppose for a silent-only movie you could cut using the small viewer and look at the stuff on a projector to judge pacing, etc. except that you'd have to use a tape-splice friendly projector.

 

This is why Kris said the the serious filmmaker editing workprint would have an upright or flatbed.

[Steven Budden]

The language is from the first edition -- I didn't really update the stuff about editing workprint.

 

No, those are different things you need. An editing machine is not the same thing as the stuff on an editing table (hand rewinds, gang sync, splicer, etc.)  The book is just saying that you need a motorized viewer of some sort that plays the footage & sound rolls, locked together, at normal speed (i.e. 24 fps) for judging editing of sound and picture.  It can be either an upright (Moviola) or flatbed (Steenbeck, etc.)  The small manually cranked viewer like a Moviescop on an editing table is less necessary.  I never used one of those but I assume you could do your syncing with one by marking the frame with the clap and marking the frame on the mag with the clap, etc.  But you can do that on the upright Moviola or flatbed.

 

I mean, I suppose for a silent-only movie you could cut using the small viewer and look at the stuff on a projector to judge pacing, etc. except that you'd have to use a tape-splice friendly projector.

 

This is why Kris said the the serious filmmaker editing workprint would have an upright or flatbed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ah, thank you.

 

So the editing table is superfluous to the process? Why were both traditionally used?

 

I could do it all on a moviola upright?

 

I'm hesitant about shooting film before I know what I'm going to do with it.

 

Thank you!

 

Steven

[David Sweetman]

Personally, I love the freedom that an NLE gives me. In order for me to get the best cut, I have to work a scene, and rework it, and rework it again, and mess around with stuff and try different things and shift stuff around until I'm finally happy; until it works. I use shots in ways I hadn't thought of using them while I was on the set. If I had to try doing all this with a knife and tape, I would suffer a nervous breakdown. I'm not trying to discourage you from cutting the actual workprint, since you seem gung-ho about it; that's just how I work.

[David Mullen ASC]

Ah, thank you.

 

So the editing table is superfluous to the process? Why were both traditionally used?

 

I could do it all on a moviola upright?

 

I'm hesitant about shooting film before I know what I'm going to do with it.

 

Thank you!

 

Steven

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I didn't say that the editing TABLE was superfluous; I said that the hand-cranked viewer might be. You need the rewinds, splicer, bins, etc. But you should talk to an editor; I only cut one project on workprint back in 1988 so I'm working from memory here.

 

Kris Malkiewicz taught it every year for thirty years because we all had to make a one-minute 16mm b&w movie with two tracks of sound completed out to an answer print as part of our first year at CalArts.

 

I'm not sure editing workprint and setting up an editing room is something you want to do on your own with no experience, based on a book. You really need to visit someone else's editing room and see how they are set-up, assuming you can even find someone. Or talk to a place like Christies or Moviola for advice -- or visit a film school.

 

One problem I can see is not only finding a place that still transfers sound to 16mm mag, but finding an inking machine to put edge numbers on your workprint and sound rolls. For the one minute shorts, we had so little footage that we actually handwrote the film's edge number on our mag rolls with a Sharpie once we synced the dailies. The numbering is important because once you start cutting, the slates are gone.

[Sam Wells]

Also,

 

Are there different types of CIR guillotine splicers? some I see have two arms, blades on the right side and some have one? It looks like some have 2 cutters? Why two over one?

 

Steven

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Diagonal cutter for cutting mag film.

 

-Sam

[Sam Wells]

IIRC most of this is really covered in the book (Cinematography). But I don't have a copy (I've given away a few - "here read this & THEN I'll answer your questions" :D - which is why I only bought used copies in the past (now I can just give someone the Amazon URL etc !)

 

But if you're interested in the nuances of "old school" see if you can find an oop copy of Lenny Lipton's "Independent Filmmaking" it will cover all this stuff & various DIY approaches.

 

Also if you're in SF why not hook up with Film Arts Foundation ? They may even have Steenbecks for members to use - gathering dust -

 

(I had a friend who cut commercials in NYC;I remmber sort of envying their 35mm KEM - K800 ? -- one day I went by to see her and realised the KEM had been "repurposed" as a table to put the Avid packing boxes on. "Sign of the times" it was.......

 

-Sam

Edited June 25, 2005 by SamWells

[Robert Hughes]

As you've said before, you are in San Francisco, sometime capital of 16mm indie filmmaking, so there are going to be lots of filmmakers working and tables still in use in town. Start meeting people, going to showings, getting the word out that you want to join the club.

 

About the "Moviola upright" - the traditional Moviola editing machine was an all-in-one piece of equipment, a big green jalopy of a machine. The portable model M77 I was referring to is merely a viewer synchronized to a 4 gang synchronizer and a drive motor. You need to provide rewinds to make that work.

 

You probably won't be able to edit sync sound with a Moviscop viewer unless you do extra work. The editing table is what you need.

 

I recommend you go shoot some silent film to get the feel of the process, then shoot with "wild sound", non-synchronized. After you can handle the first two steps you will be ready for sync sound.

[Steven Budden]

I think I will do silent to start out. I'm just trying to figure out how to make it all come together. I figure the more I learn up front the more likely I'll be to make the correct choices the first time.

 

I've got an editing table set up and I'm practicing on some found footage before I try my own. This should work for the silent... if it is too primitive for sound I'll have to look for a Moviola or a Steenbeck. I can buy the thing for the rental price for a month so it hardly seems worth it to rent. The moviola upright I mean. Then I could work more sporadically. Bear in mind I'm coming from a painting background which is probably why I'm trying to work it in a similar way... that is set up a studio and work every day on something.

 

Filmarts does have steenbecks but evidently they're not gathering dust. They need to be reserved a while in advance. But they're not too expensive... $15 an hour to $1000 a month. That's not bad is it?

 

Anyway, ebay is certainly the slowest way to get into filmmaking. I keep getting lenses that say mint, and they're full of fungus, scratches, cleaning marks, black specks, whatever. It might be more stress than the savings are worth.

 

Also, I'll have to look into the full coat magnetic sound film. There are a lot of places in town that sell it blank. Is that so filmmakers can transfer to it themselves? I'll check on the edge numbers too. There are many people in this city doing linear editing. Even when I was in grad school (for painting) at SFAI many of the students would disappear into a mysterious room full of editing tables. Of course, just as many would disappear into a mysterious room full of glowing boxes with apples on the side.

 

Thanks for the help!

 

Steven

[Steven Budden]

Personally, I love the freedom that an NLE gives me.  In order for me to get the best cut, I have to work a scene, and rework it, and rework it again, and mess around with stuff and try different things and shift stuff around until I'm finally happy; until it works.  I use shots in ways I hadn't thought of using them while I was on the set.  If I had to try doing all this with a knife and tape, I would suffer a nervous breakdown.  I'm not trying to discourage you from cutting the actual workprint, since you seem gung-ho about it; that's just how I work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I know the lure of the digital. Computers greatly increase efficiency. But is art about efficiency? Isn't there something poetic about meditating for a while, making one decisive gesture and living with it? Was Kerouac right when he said "First thought, best thought?"

 

Is that just me?

 

I'm starting to see that film can be many things to many people. When so much money goes in, money must come out. And so most film operates as a business... a business that hires many great and mediocre artists. I'm constantly wondering how to keep film in the realm of art... if that is even possible? If it isn't I don't want anything to do with making it. I'll be content to slump down in a theatre seat now and again to forget about life for a while.

 

Isn't film (or wasn't it) an object with properties? Light shone through an emulsion, to shine out of the darkness like a kind of ghost, and then dissappear again, leaving us haunted at best? Isn't Van Gogh the greatest because he used paint to its fullest advantage? Or Rembrandt? Well, these advances in art history only came after earlier artists learned to polish their paintings off so thoroughly not one brushstroke showed. Romantically I tend to think film is somewhere comparable in its own history. Scratches, dust, flicker, all being polished off (usually digitally). I miss seeing that fuzz on the film now and again.

 

I don't know. I'm just ruminating on the absurd. Am I a purist in an impure world?

Or do I hang onto waning abstract ideas just for the sake of trying to keep afloat?

 

It also might have something to do with the fact that I stare at a computer screen for eight hours a day at work... the last thing I want to do is come home and make art on one.

 

Steven

[Sam Wells]

No I think your ideas make sense. But...

 

Random thoughts and the first is I would start w/ silent. (I think the trouble with a half-purist approach is - and I've heard this a lot - is that folks suddenly want 'tricks on demand' so it leads to "how can I sync ProToolsHD to my upright Moviola ?" :D

 

OK I've done nearly as weird...

 

(Moviola upright is a BEAR btw)

 

On the one hand I'm very sympathetic to your quite poetic invocation of the ghostly properties of film, formally. I think really learning the material AS material is a good thing - which as a painter you know.

 

OTOH I'm finding the iterative & fluid possibilities of "digitally sampled" film to be a fascinating branch of the river downstream from the above, so to speak...

 

-Sam

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> how can I sync ProToolsHD to my upright Moviola

 

Put a keykode reader on the Moviola and run Protools against the keykodes and flex file.

 

Hah!

 

Phil

[Sam Wells]

OK, you go first :D

 

-Sam

[Steven Budden]

Thanks! Silent it will be for a while. :)

 

You have an upright moviola? Any advice, if I were theoretically going to buy one, what to look for?

 

I like the upright idea because space is limited. Very limited.

 

Steven

[Steven Budden]

Oh, sunny day film friends, eh? We've got them all over now, don't we...

 

OK, you're willing to use Regular 16 format. Be aware that it's slowly becoming obsolete, but there's plenty of gear built for it and available for pretty cheap.

 

Projectors: RCA Pageant or Bell & Howell with OPTICAL sound, not magnetic. Magnetic read heads are useless, since nobody uses mag stripe film anymore. If you go to 16mm print you'll want to use optical (and mask off your S16 gate so you can run R16).

 

Viewers: Zeiss Moviscop type, $75 on eBay, or tabletop Moviola M79 - type viewer/editor.

 

Rewinds: Hollywood, Moviola, etc. Try to find a pair with long shafts and spare clutches.

 

Synchronizer: J&R, Moviola, etc. 3 gangs or more, at least 1 sound head.

 

Splicer: Tape (Ciro Guillotine type) or cement (Maier Hancok type).

 

Lab & Post House: someone local (preferred) and willing to talk to you (essential).

 

And you're probably going to need your NLE friends' gear, expertise, and advise eventually anyway, so don't lose your connections to them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I'm stumped on that Moviola M-79? When I google it all that comes up is this post! Is that the larger viewer built onto a 4 or 5 gang synchronizer? I think I see a picture of it in my old 16mm editing film book but I can't seem to find someone selling one anywhere? Do you know of a dealer that might have one?

 

I think something like that would be more suited to my present needs than a moviola upright or some huge machine. If all else fails I'll just try to get a M-50 viewer. I bought a synchronizer on ebay which, of course, may or may not work.

 

Also, couldn't one theoretically use a 35mm viewer to edit super 16, sync up the super 16 full coat, and then blow that stuff up to 35 at the end of the editing process for release? Out of curiosity.

 

Thanks!

 

Steven

[Steven Budden]

I'm stumped on that Moviola M-79? When I google it all that comes up is this post! Is that the larger viewer built onto a 4 or 5 gang synchronizer? I think I see a picture of it in my old 16mm editing film book but I can't seem to find someone selling one anywhere? Do you know of a dealer that might have one?

 

I think something like that would be more suited to my present needs than a moviola upright or some huge machine. If all else fails I'll just try to get a M-50 viewer. I bought a synchronizer on ebay which, of course, may or may not work.

 

Also, couldn't one theoretically use a 35mm viewer to edit super 16, sync up the super 16 full coat, and then blow that stuff up to 35 at the end of the editing process for release? Out of curiosity.

 

Thanks!

 

Steven

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

One more thing... on this motorized synchronizer, it looks like the motor is spinning, and one of the rubber gears is going, but it is not touching the shaft of the second gear. Does this mean the gear is worn? Are there supposed to be belts or something?

 

Anyone point me towards a repair manual, or even just a manual for the motorized moviola four gang synchronizer?

 

Thank you!

 

Steven