Pistol Flash

[Kyle Geerkens]

Hi,

 

I'm shooting a dramatization for a historical Doc next month and im trying to work out my options for an assassination scene.

 

The assassin is seen mainly in silouhette until he raises his 19th century pistol into view (POV) and fires it. now my question here is mainly budget constrained. If i find a replica period gun, im reaasonable sure I'll have a hard time being able to fire blanks from it.

 

I also can't imagine how I could possibly make this scene believable without the barrel flash? I must have this! Sooooo.... is there a way for me to get a realiztic looking flash in post? (without too much hefty software) FCP-HD is what im using along with standard Mac software.

 

Or.... any ideas on making this flash actually happen???

 

 

thanks

[John Sprung]

Do it in post. First, look frame by frame at some shots that contain pistol flashes to get an idea of what they look like. They're only there for a frame, or at most part of a second frame. They're soft and bright, which makes them real easy to fake. So, pick your frame, pull it over to PhotoShop, and hand paint the flash.

 

In production, you might try a few takes with a hidden piece of sash cord or something tied to the actor's arm that an unseen grip can give a tug on to simulate the recoil of firing a real bullet. That's a bit of realism that you don't get with practical blanks. Paint your flash, drop in the sound, and it should look great.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Guest Sean McVeigh]

In production, you might try a few takes with a hidden piece of sash cord or something tied to the actor's arm that an unseen grip can give a tug on to simulate the recoil of firing a real bullet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You might also consider firing a photo flash on set when the shot is taken. The flash from the end of the gun would tend to illuminate its surroundings. Doing the flash in post is easy, but I don't think it'll look right without the respective collateral illumination. The only thing you may have to watch out for is timing... a photoflash operates for a ten-thousandth of a second or so.. firing it when the shutter is closed would be useless.. you could try some other slower light sources instead.

[Bob Hayes]

I am not a weapons expert and you must talk with one before filming your project. A dueling pistol is probably a black powder weapon so I would think a small amount of black power would create the desired effect. Make sure no one is in the line of fire.

[Chris Keth]

I am not a weapons expert and you must talk with one before filming your project. A dueling pistol is probably a black powder weapon so I would think a small amount of black power would create the desired effect.  Make sure no one is in the line of fire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Bingo, if you want flash and a bang you just load the pistol with a small charge (20-25 grains) of black powder and a loading wad or wad of patches. You still have to be very careful because there will be fire and the wad will be a projectile, but it would only sting. A little bundle of patches would be the better option since they open up and spread when fired so will be safer. I've done this before and it looks very realistic because it essentially is, only without the lead.

 

 

Still, I MUST STRESS (couldn't let you skip this part of my message :P ): talk to an arms expert. I'm telling you this from the point of view of a black powder shooter and hunter who is in film school. There may be a better, safer way to do it.

[Guest Ian Marks]

Why not save yourself the aggravation of hiring an armorer or specialist and just use a non-firing replica? A muzzle flash should be easy enough to create as a post effect using After Effects, Combustion, or a similar compositing package. I seem to recall that there are plug-ins for AE made for just this purpose. Also, a "real" muzzle flash may not register on film as you would like it.

 

I rented the DVD of "Once Upon a Time in Mexico" recently and in the extra features learned that a major shoot-out scene (the one early in the film that takes place in a church) was filmed entirely with rubber guns because the filmmakers couldn't get the real guns into Mexico in time. All of the muzzle flashes were added digitally, but you'd never know it watching the film.

[Kyle Geerkens]

excellent advice guys!

 

thanks a lot. I think i'm going to check out after effects for plu-ins as mentioned. If they're good enough looking thats my best/cheapest bet.

 

otherwise its danger all the way!!

 

thanks again

[Thomas Worth]

Here's an example of a muzzle flash done completely in post:

 

http://rarevision.com/gun_test.php

[Guest Kai.w]

Hi,

 

I'm shooting a dramatization for a historical Doc next month and im trying to work out my options for an assassination scene.

 

The assassin is seen mainly in silouhette until he raises his 19th century pistol into view (POV) and fires it.  now my question here is mainly budget constrained.  If i find a replica period gun, im reaasonable sure I'll have a hard time being able to fire blanks from it.

 

I also can't imagine how I could possibly make this scene believable without the barrel flash?  I must have this!  Sooooo....  is there a way for me to get a realiztic looking flash in post?  (without too much hefty software)  FCP-HD is what im using along with standard Mac software.

 

Or....  any ideas on making this flash actually happen???

thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

If you do want to create it in post maybe check out artbeats:

 

http://www.artbeats.com/prod/product.php?pg=3&id=165

 

if you don't want to buy it you can still view the little quicktimes to check out what it may look like...

 

-k

[Bob Hayes]

Nice job Tomas Worth. I especially like the car hits. I am also a big advocate of digital flashes. In addition to safety issues from blanks the noise issues often become a problem in populated areas.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

The other thing to do, which I think he did, is to cut out a few frames to sharpen up the snap of the recoil. Nice blink acting.

 

And paint in shellcases. They move so fast they're practically invisible anyway.

 

And animate the topslide.

 

Smoke can't hurt.

 

Phil

[Bob Hayes]

My biggest complaint in digital flashes is not having the slide re-chamber the round. To me it is the biggest most visual element in firing an automatic next to the flash. Also, for the most part blanks don?t give me enough smoke these days.

 

Bob

Edited January 27, 2005 by bob1dp

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Well, the movement of the topslide is incredibly fast - you can probably do it as a photoshop job in a single frame.

 

As to the original question, though - that's just not what a flintlock looks like. Low-velocity firearms don't produce the single-frame white flash, they produce a big orange flare and flying sparks (possibly more so if there's no ball in the way) - there's a lot of it in Cold Mountain...

 

Phil

[Thomas Worth]

Real muzzle flashes are seldom as dramatic as Hollywood portrays. "Movie" guns use "full flash" blanks, which are blanks designed to produce a large flash with a duration long enough to be photographed by a camera. This means the flash must burn longer, and that most of the propellant is burned. In a real pistol, the flash would oftentimes happen to quickly to be photographed by the camera (it would be out of phase with the camera's shutter). Also, there would be more residual powder, which simply burns and creates smoke when not compressed. .45s especially create large billows of smoke when fired. This is not only from the barrel but from the ejection port as well.

 

Assault rifles typically use some type of flash suppressor, designed to reduce and / or completely eliminate any muzzle flash from the rifle. Not too exiting, eh? The fact is that muzzle flash makes it impossible to use night vision equipment, and also gives away your position when in battle in low light conditions. So, many rifles will not "flash" at all, especially in broad daylight. You're more likely to see smoke and faint sparks from the muzzle, and smoke from the ejection port.

 

Sound suppressed weapons usually never flash. In fact, the ATF has ruled that sound suppressors ARE flash suppressors. They do, however, emit smoke as most weapons do when fired.

 

The movement of the slide applies only to pistols, of course. As Phil said, it's a single frame job as is the flash itself. A bit of motion blur would trick most people.

 

If you really want to get realistic with post effects, concentrate on the smoke, and ejecting shells. Of course, those two things are much more difficult to simulate than a single frame muzzle flash. But, anything worth watching is going to take some effort. In any case, we should be glad because with digital effects we are no longer confined to the unrealism brought on by the technical limitations of motion picture photography.

[Mark Allen]

Or....  any ideas on making this flash actually happen???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My 2 quick cents.

 

There is plug-in for After Effects by DigiEffects which has a pretty nice muzzle flash creator - looks surprisingly as good as just about anything i've seen and is easy to set angles and such.

 

Art Beats also works.

 

I think guns on the set are just way too dangerous. Also, the chance of actually catching the flash is too rare and too random.

 

I am actually curious if there is any very safe way for a gun to be rigged to not make a ton of noise (so actors and crew don't have to wear ear plugs... and i fyou're not wearing them, you should) and not necessarily make a flash - but provide smoke! Smoke coming from the gun is harder to create and would be helpful to have on the set. Any tricks for that?

 

As for residual light from a flash. We examined a ton of frames and discovered that the residual light is a lot less dramatic than you would expect. That was at least from the frames we were examining where some flashes were caught and some were not. Obviously a gun in a dark room, you'd notice it. (BTW - the best shot of Equillibrium uses this with phenomenal result.)

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

The most interesting artifact I've seen of photographing firearms is in Starship Troopers, where the rifles were cycling at very, very nearly some exact factor of 24 rounds per second, and would drift in and out of phase with the camera during long bursts. There's some interesting shots with lots of noise, smoke, cycling action and flying brass, but no flash at all.

 

Phil

[Kyle Geerkens]

thanks everyone

 

 

very helpful. Im definitely going to be doing this in post.

 

most likely painting it in myself.

 

 

thanks again

[Kyle Geerkens]

Thomas,

 

how was the recoil done in your gun test footage? did the actor move her arm herself or was she tugged?

 

also did you paint in your effects yourself or purchase pre made flashes and smoke?