Cross-processing

[John Robson]

I have a tetenal c41 kit that I am planning on using for photo films. I thought I might try chucking a super 8 ektachome 100D in at the end, anyone have any experience with this? I haven't tried cross processing photos before but I believe processing e6 in c41 gives you a negative. If this is so it will obviously be tricky to get it projected. Is it possible to still project it in a normal super 8 projector, you would just have an negative image on the screen, maybe it would look interesting? Would it be possible to project it, telecine it and then invert it in final cut pro or something?

 

Also how about b+w reversal, TriX 200D, can that be cross processed in any way?

 

Thanks

[Friedemann Wachsmuth]

John,

 

I recently tried crossprocessing E100D and it worked:

 

I inverted the above picture on my monitor and filmed form there. The bottom part is a scan of the E100D snippet develoepd in C-41. It turns out very grainy, contrasty and low on the green side.

 

Sure you can "cross" process Tri-X -- e.g. as negative stock. Just don't put it into color dev, the bleach would make it clear film.

[John Robson]

Thanks Friedemann,

 

sorry I've been away and so didn't see your post until just now. I have now tried cross processing photographic film and I really like how it turned out so I will try it with super 8 soon. How does it look when projected through a normal super 8 projector? Does it cut through the orange mask that negs have? To be honest I don't really want to do it if you have to change loads of stuff after telecine, I'd rather just have it projected from the film, as long as it looks pretty interesting, experimental, different etc. I'll definitely do it if it projects like the bottom image.

As for b+w reversal, I'm not sure what chemicals would be used for it, so not colour e6 or colour c41 (although perhaps you could and bypass the bleaching?) And I'm assuming you couldn't do it in normal b+w negative e6 photo chemicals (eg ID11, stop and then fix), so there must be a separate chemical process for b+w reversal?

[Martin Baumgarten]

Hi John. You can use your C-42 kit to cross-process Ektachrome 100 Daylight without any problem. It will be developed as a Color Negative, but without the typical orange masking that a true Color Neg filmstock has. Thus, it will be very easy to telecine, just using the NEG position on whatever video camera you are using for transfer. It will help if you have one with exposure adjustment also....but if not, if you can just vary the light output of your transfer projector...that will also work.

 

ALSO, there isn't a difficult to remove remjet anti-halation backing on the EK100D film, as there is on the Vision 200T and Vision 500T films. So, really, it's very easy. Transfer via using the NEG mode, works quite well, and there is minimal color correction needed.....as long as the original filmwork was done under the right color temp conditions, using a Filter for Daylight and without for Tungsten etc. As for projecting the film, it's not normally recommended, but you can do so. The reason they all state not to, is to avoid any projection tram lines and other projection wear, so the neg stays clean for transfer or for printing (which few consider but is available). We used to shoot film and process as NEG in both B&W or Color and use it to insert into shots where something strange or other-worldly is going on. And yes, you can just transfer it as a Negative and then flip it later in your software. Since it doesn't have the orange masking.....it reverts quite nicely to a Color Positive image.

 

LASTLY, also yes...you can cross-process TRI-X 7266 (or any 7278, or even PLUS-X 7276/7265 if you have any) as a B&W Negative film using B&W Negative Chemistry........use D-76 or similar for a nice smooth even toned film useful for transfer or printing, or use a higher contrast developer for a high contrast look. IF you use a typical B&W Reversal Kit/process, and just process it as a B&W Negative, it will have much higher than normal contrast.....so be forewarned. Using just a single roll of film, you can shoot several tests, and cut it up into segments and process each segment differently, and you'll have good comparison tests of various processing effects, without having to waste lots of film. Hope this helps.

[John Robson]

Thanks Martin,

 

Thanks for all the info, lots of help.

And brilliant news about the b+w, I have access to ID11 (which I believe is extremely similar to D-76, the same processing times) for free which will keep my costs down to just the film which I can get quite cheaply :) I also have some TMax developer which works great for trix photos so I may try that at some point.

Thanks for the tip of cutting it into smaller segments, hadn't thought of that. I'd just been having nightmares of getting 50 feet of film onto the spiral correctly and evenly in the dark, 10 feet or so per process seems much more manageable. Although wouldn't less film in the tank make the times quite different than a full roll, shorter times for less film? Maybe only 3 or so segments and then increase the time slightly when doing a full roll.

If its in segments I may just dump it in a normal empty tank as I quite like the sort of marks you get. Incidentally would this be alright for a whole roll? I have access to a proper super 8 tank, but would it be possible to just dump it all in a large empty tank, say one that holds 3 35mm photo neg, or would it all be pushed together too much?

Any ideas of rough times in comparison to b+w negative photos? A guess for me would be ID11 (pretty much the same as D-76) at 7mins, 9mins and 11mins or should I widen the tests? Although I guess I can see after the first 1 how much needs doing so I can work it out as I go along, maybe start at 9mins and work from there up or down.

 

Thanks

Edited February 22, 2011 by John Robson

[Martin Baumgarten]

Thanks Martin,

 

Thanks for all the info, lots of help.

And brilliant news about the b+w, I have access to ID11 (which I believe is extremely similar to D-76, the same processing times) for free which will keep my costs down to just the film which I can get quite cheaply :) I also have some TMax developer which works great for trix photos so I may try that at some point.

Thanks for the tip of cutting it into smaller segments, hadn't thought of that. I'd just been having nightmares of getting 50 feet of film onto the spiral correctly and evenly in the dark, 10 feet or so per process seems much more manageable. Although wouldn't less film in the tank make the times quite different than a full roll, shorter times for less film? Maybe only 3 or so segments and then increase the time slightly when doing a full roll.

If its in segments I may just dump it in a normal empty tank as I quite like the sort of marks you get. Incidentally would this be alright for a whole roll? I have access to a proper super 8 tank, but would it be possible to just dump it all in a large empty tank, say one that holds 3 35mm photo neg, or would it all be pushed together too much?

Any ideas of rough times in comparison to b+w negative photos? A guess for me would be ID11 (pretty much the same as D-76) at 7mins, 9mins and 11mins or should I widen the tests? Although I guess I can see after the first 1 how much needs doing so I can work it out as I go along, maybe start at 9mins and work from there up or down.

 

Thanks

[Martin Baumgarten]

Sorry, goofed up here previously in attempting to reply.

 

The ILFORD ID11 will work fine for processing TXR or PXR films as nice continous tone B&W Negative images. [on another note regarding Color Neg: sorry about my silly typo it's C-41 of course, NOT C-42]

 

The tip for cutting the film into smaller segments is NOT intended to process your entire film that way....as you'd get some uneven processing as well as emulsion damage problems. The purpose is to process TEST shots using only one cartridge of film, and then to compare the results and decide which route would be the best option for whatever you plan to do on your film project. This way, only the cost of a single cartridge of film is involved, yielding several tests if needed....and of course low cost processing of these tests, instead of having ot send several equivalent cartridges of film to the lab for processing (or the involved work of doing several films yourself).

 

For professional processing results, I suggest learning to load the LOMO spiral reels correctly and using that (or other similar ones: Powell Tank, Superior Bulk Film Super 8 Tank, JOBO Super 8 Tank etc). While it's actually easier and quicker to load the film in the dark once you've practiced many times with scrap film in room light.....it is also quite possible to set up a Video camera which has Night-Shot on it (using IR imaging) on a tripod. The viewfinder (NOT the flipout sidefinder!) will be facing away from the workbench or table and will not harm the film, since you eye will be over it anyway. That way, should you need the extra assurance of seeing what you're doing, you'll be able to.

 

Regarding a change in processing time for shorter bits of film......that is not necessary. Using the LOMO tank and the 1500 ml of chemistry or thereabouts, for either one roll or two rolls of Super 8mm, or even short bits...the times are all the same. If you want to just process some short bits of film, for TESTING, using a NIKOR or similar type roll film tank will work.....but yes, the film bits will touch and there will be possible scratching and some parts with incorrect processing due to emulsion contact. But then, the purpose of doing this is for TESTING to see how modifying a certain process will look. Then applying the test results to real project film and processing that correctly in proper equipment to yield usable results.

 

As for development times, it depends on exposure, desired negative density and contrast etc. KODAK states " TRI-X 7266 Negative Processing

This film can be processed as a negative by conventional methods and will yield satisfactory results. Some loss in speed and an increase in granularity will likely occur." I fully concur, so do some exposure and processing tests. Typically, a loss of at least 1/2 Stop will occur when processing as B&W Negative. You can make this up by slightly pushing the film as well. It looks quite nice either way, adjusting exposure or increasing development time slightly. But, you will need to shoot a few short segments and bracket your exposures and see what you like. Or, if using Automatic exposure, shoot and then cutup the film and process a segment one way, check the density etc...and then make the necessary time adjustment to process the rest etc.

Good luck!