Advice on 16mm Format..

danny bartle · March 7, 2004

Hello Everyone, I'm new to this forum & format so be gentle....

I'm a 23 yr old part time surfing triggerman. Been shooting a 3CCD Sony PDX10P mini DV from the water inside a water housing & also from the beach too with some great results. Most of my good footage gets bought by a few surf filmmakers here in Australia, which barely covers my equipment but I do it for the love, not money at this stage.

Now i'm thinking of moving onto 16mm. Firstly, what sort of results will I get shooting 16mm low speed neg film transferred to mini DV as opposed to 3CCD mini DV?

Many surf filmers use 16mm (mostly spring driven Bolex). If I was to go 16mm, I too am thinking of going down the road of Bolex as they dont need batteries, have about 20 seconds of run time per wind which is enough & are pretty solid. Would this be a good option for me also? My budget is about AU$1000 or about US$800. What models would you recommend or possibly any other brands?

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Jamie,

Perth, Australia.

Phil Rhodes · March 7, 2004

Hi,

> Firstly, what sort of results will I get shooting 16mm low speed neg film

> transferred to mini DV as opposed to 3CCD mini DV?

Almost infinitely better, although of course staggeringly more expensive. Also somewhat inconvenient to keep reloading, especially on a sandy beach in bright sunlight surrounded by salt water, which is about the most hostile environment for camera gear.

The 16mm film transfers will have higher resolution than your miniature handycam. They might not have higher absolute resolution than a really good full-size DVCAM camcorder which records essentially the same format, but against your existing consumer-grade handycam, they will be a lot sharper. Also, the dynamic range is much larger - those moments where your handycam flares white, or even produces vertical smearing when you aim it into the sun will be much reduced or completely absent respectively, although of course it's still possible to overexpose. This expanded dynamic range is one of the main reasons that film simply looks nicer than video, if only because we're all conditioned to TV ads and movies looking nicer than "Home and Away."

Plus, and this would be extremely valuable for sports shooting, you can overcrank in film for smooth slow motion. Also, since you're not really going to be interested in a silent camera for sound shooting (you won't hear it over the roar of the surf even if you are recording a soundtrack!) you can look for a reasonably-priced older camera that's an easy super-16 conversion with robust overcranking. Others will be able to make specific reccomendations.

Phil

danny bartle · March 7, 2004

Thanks for the reply Phil...

I know 16mm costs $$ to shoot so I was only thinking of using it when good pro surfers are out or when the surf conditions are perfect. I'd still be mostly shooting in 3CCD mini DV but bring out the 16mm when I know its worth it.

I actually already own an old Bolex non reflex s/n: 97xxx which was made in 1954. It was given to me by my dads friend but i've never used it yet. Runs good on all speeds & i've heard they are reasonably easy to convert to super 16.

Has anyone got any specific camera recommendations or more 16mm advice?

Rachel Oliver · March 7, 2004

Hi;

You could get your non-reflex Bolex converted to S16 if you wanted, www.cameraspro.com are able to do this but you'd have to send your Bolex to the USA! If I were you though I'd find a good deal on a reflex RX model between 6 - 8 hundred US dollars for the body. I own an REX-5 myself. I would think wide angle lenses are good for surf footage? If so the Peleng 8mm with a C mount adapter will work with a Bolex and will also cover S16 so it's future proof, it's also very cheap and decently sharp too! A great UK dealer is Andrew Alden www.bolex.co.uk He has very very good deals on just about every thing Bolex ever made, not sure of any dealers in Oz mind? Ask your surf buddies.....

danny bartle · March 7, 2004

yes wide angle & fish eye lenses are great for shooting in the water with a housing but I plan to use the 16mm from land first as housings are expensive(paid$2000 for my custom & i'd assume the Bolex housing would be more due to the back wind handle needed). The camera had a 25mm switar & 13mm Elgeet already.

I'd need a telephoto lens for land use, probably something in the 100-200mm mark. I have a Nikon 80-200mm f2.8 lens already which I wanted to get an adaptor to fit the bolex. Also are the side mounted finders reasonably accurate?

Just tried the www.bolex.co.uk link but no site was found....

Tim Carroll · March 7, 2004

Andrew is definitely the dude when it comes to Bolex. Just went to his site and it's gone. I emailed him and hopefully will hear back. If I do, I will post here.

If you want Super 16, and spring wound, you probably want a Rex 5, an SBM or an SB. All these are recommended for converting to Super 16. The older models are really not recommended for the conversion, but you can find anyone to convert just about anything, so there you go.

Good luck, I think you will like the images you get from 16mm.

-Tim

Rachel Oliver · March 7, 2004

I think his site is having maintanance, try after the weekend, he is great and will give you advice about which lenses you require etc. I'm sure you can addapt almost anything, I use a POE 16-100 zoom which almost totally covers S16 but I guess this is a little short your needs? I've seen 150mm Yvar lenses in C- mount for the Bolex..... The old Octameter pc-13 viewing aid has viewing ranges from 15mm to 150mm, I never used one myself and I'd say if framing is critical then a reflex Bolex is essential! Bolex actually made underwater housing for the H16 (Water tight to 300') But again I would think these are really rare now.

Olly

March 7, 2004

With the budget you have and the type of clients you have, have you thought about just improving your video? I don't know if you have any auxiliary lenses. You mentioned fisheye and extreme W/A, I think. Do you have them? Do you have good ones? Do you have some good telephoto aux. lens(es)? Do you have a good tripod? If you do have all that, how about getting one more video camera with 16:9 chip. I think that Panasonic has some loss expensive ones and I think that Sharp is coming out with one. How good are they? I don't know. Maybe someone could comment on this. Two camera coverage of such events is a lot better than having just one camera.

Of course film is better and 16 mm will give you better resolution and better highlights. But think about the other options and conveniences. The video cameras you can just keep rolling; you will not have to worry about losing a shot; tape costs nothing.

danny bartle · March 8, 2004

Well I already have a 16:9 full resolution 3CCD video camera. Its the Sony PDX10. The only way I could upgrade is to buy the panasonic DVX100 which I've heard gives a "film look". I already have numerous telephoto, wide angle & fish eye lenses, filters, an underwater housing & an excellent fluid head tripod for my video camera.

I'm not really too worried about the 16mm running costs at this stage. I know tape costs nothing but i'd still be shooting probably 90% in video. Like I said its only used for those special surf days where I know my footage will easily be sold.

I have been considering the Panasonic DVX100 but i've had mixed reports regarding this camera. I'd love to hire one first to try it but being in Australia (esp where I am in Perth) I can find anyone who hires them. The way I see I could buy a DVX100 for about US$4500-$5000 (with batteries, lenses, etc) or get a Bolex for a lot less which would give me better results. Like I said, its not as if i'll be shooting it everyday, more like about 100-200feet a month...

Another thing which makes me not want to buy another video camera is how quickly they become outdated. I bought this Sony PDX10 camera 8 months ago & I'm already thinking its a bit outdated. Most video camera's need to be updated regularly as there's always new features (like progressive scan & 16:9).

I'd like to get a good condition Bolex which would last me a while...

March 8, 2004

The DVX 100a will not be that much better for what you're doing. The PDX10 will not handle highlights as well as the DVX. The resolution in the 16:9 mode, which you're probably using, will be slightly worse on the PDX. I would not bother with the DVX. If you deinterlace your PDX footage, it will not look that much different from the DVX.

With the new low cost HD cameras that will be introduced within a year, your Bolex may be outdated even quicker than the PDX, for what you're doing. I still think that for your purpose it may be better to shoot with two cameras and just keep the tape rolling than just shoot a little bit here and there with a film camera. You will not be able to zoom; will not have image stabilization, etc. But if what you shoot is to be shown in theaters; it's a differnt story.

danny bartle · March 8, 2004

None of my previous footage has been used in cinema or theatre. All my footage is used mostly on DVD's or VHS video format. The main reason I want to use 16mm, from what i've heard is that it looks a lot better than 3CCD footage (by transferring the 16mm footage to mini DV).....

GeorgeSelinsky · March 8, 2004

The main reason I want to use 16mm, from what i've heard is that it looks a lot better than 3CCD footage (by transferring the 16mm footage to mini DV).....

Speaking from a director's POV, it's a bit unusual to suddenly jump from tape to film unless you are doing this for artistic effect. Assuming this is a documentary style project, where mixed media is more common, not a narrative film - If I were to see a doc where most of the footage is tape and I see a switch to film, I'll probably assume this was footage that was shot for another project but bought for the purposes of this one.

Such a shift might, of course, work out really cool from an aesthetic POV - that's up to you to decide.

But if most of your film is shot on tape and then you include just a bit of 16mm footage, that's not going to help make the entire film more marketable because of the brief increase in image quality. Besides, I think with documentary projects film versus tape matters considerably less.

- G.

Oliver Gläser · March 8, 2004

hey dude,

I don't know how handy you are, but that camera you have is perfect for what you are trying to do. If the bolex runs well ( the spring motor is strong ) then you should have a great camera. The Non Reflex version of the camera, which is what you have is great, and without the Beam splitter that the reflex's have should give you a slightly sharper image, provided that you have some nice glass (lenses). The 25mm you have is nice. Try to pick up a set of switar primes and maybe a reflexed Angenieux off ebay.

Look up Ultra 16 in this forum and also in last years forum and you might find that this format would prove perfect for your camera. The thing is, is it really worth it to spend more money than the camera is worth for an upgrade to Super16mm. I think not. Your camera's gate is easily accessable and could be taken out and extended to fit the Ultra Frame. The upgrade can be done by any good machinest or head to a camera rental house and talk to their machinest. I have the upgrades done here for under 100 bucks per gate depending on the complexity. Trust me, the bolex is simple to do. Then you can still use regular 16mm primes and zooms on the c-mount.

Another thing. With surf shooting, you should be able to get away with a splash housing for that camera. If you are a little handy you should be able to build one fairly easily out of Plexiglass or Lexan that could survive down the few feet that you will need to get down to. For that all you need to do is get some Lexan, Screws, Silicone, a drill and a saw and you should be able to fashion yourself a pretty sweet little housing in a short amount of time for little cash. Anyway, good luck and I hope it works...Oh one more thing, have you considerd shooting any Super8mm for some of this. I K40 would look amazing in those circumstances and there is a camera that if you found one cheap enough would be perfect. Its called the Eumig Nautica and it was designed to be used underwater...in other words, WATERPROOF. thats all for now.

By the way, I have friends who are skateboard shooters and they shoot on film and video too, so I understand exactly what you mean about selling the footage etc. I definetly agree and think thats the right way to go. Film just has such a cool look. Also you can overcrank the film to add some cool, non digital slowmotion. good shooting man.

Peace

Oliver Gläser

cinematographer

Tim Carroll · March 8, 2004

Jamie,

Heard back from Andrew, his server is having problems. Here is another web address that will bring you to his site;

http://www.btinternet.com/~andrew.alden1/index.html

He really is an expert on all things Bolex and can help you get anything you should need. Very high quality equipment for sale as well.

Good Luck,

-Tim

Michael Nash · March 9, 2004

Great discussion, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned the obvious -- surf shooting has been a niche market for years. Why not try to find some used gear from other professional surf shooters? Seems they would have worked out all these technical logistics (regarding 16mm) long ago... You don't have to try to re-invent the wheel. ;)

danny bartle · March 9, 2004

thanks for all the help everyone.... defeinetely dont wanna re-invent the wheel!

well i've spoken to 2 surf film guys recently & both of them use them Bolex's (which very much suit surf filming, no batteries, strong solid unit & waves generally wont last longer than 15 seconds max therefore no need for long takes) & one of them uses a Photosonics High Speed Cam. They've had their work shown on the big screen but the surfing companies they shoot the riders for pay for all their flights, accomodation & all film costs.

Now i'm not at their level.. yet... Like I said most of my footage is used on DVD's. The guys I sell the footage to all use 3CCD video cameras for almost 90% of their footage as they generally only know about video & probably dont know a great deal about film.

Now what i'm trying to achieve is a bit of an "improvement" over the other shooters out there who sell their footage who use video, hence why I'm thinking of 16mm transferred to mini DV as I've heard its better.

What I think I might do it just try the 16mm Bolex i've got, get it processed & transferred & see what I think of it. Who knows I may love it. I spose the only thing I have to lose is a bit of money!!

Thanks for your comments to thedirector007 but I already have a water housing for my 3CCD Sony as its a whole lot easier to shoot video in the water rather than film. Its hard enough getting right next to the surfer being able to just pont & shoot rather than worry about all the factors using 16mm film like focussing aperture etc. The amount of times i've been severely knocked about out there in the water (like this morning!) theres other things to consider first ie: trying not to drown..

Also thanks for the Bolex link too...