Add Michael Bay to the "list"...

[Francesco Bonomo]

..so whenever someone says you should shoot digital and 3D only because Jim Cameron is doing it, you can quote Bay: :lol:

 

on 3D:

 

"The 3D cameras are digital. I had to make the process work for me. Everyone kept saying, “You’re going to have to add weeks on your schedule. You’re going to only get this many shots.” And I’m like, “That’s just not acceptable.” I brought the guys down, we put them through the paces pretending like we’re doing a shoot day. This was months before we shot. I tried to play it like put the camera over here, put the camera…because what I do when I shoot is I leapfrog a lot. That’s kind of been my specialty, where I get a lot per day, because I’m always like three setups ahead. [...]

With 3D, they said that’s not possible. And so what I figured out…you’ve got this gigantic beast. I’ve said it: it’s not ready for primetime. Now they’ve got these little cameras, like the reds and whatnot. But while we were doing our movie, you check on the competition. “Well, how’s it going?” You know through the crew members, the camera assistants, “Pirates are getting three shots a day.” “Really?” Then you hear the disasters and the cameras. It’s new technology. This is the wild, wild west right now. The theater projectors are different, the camera systems are different. There’s no standardized anything right now. "

 

On Digital:

 

"Digital, no matter what people tell you, it’s bullshit. They say, “Oh, it looks just like film.” It doesn’t look like film and never will. And it’s like those people that are telling you are technicians."

[Andrew R]

..so whenever someone says you should shoot digital and 3D only because Jim Cameron is doing it, you can quote Bay: :lol:

 

on 3D:

 

"The 3D cameras are digital. I had to make the process work for me. Everyone kept saying, “You’re going to have to add weeks on your schedule. You’re going to only get this many shots.” And I’m like, “That’s just not acceptable.” I brought the guys down, we put them through the paces pretending like we’re doing a shoot day. This was months before we shot. I tried to play it like put the camera over here, put the camera…because what I do when I shoot is I leapfrog a lot. That’s kind of been my specialty, where I get a lot per day, because I’m always like three setups ahead. [...]

With 3D, they said that’s not possible. And so what I figured out…you’ve got this gigantic beast. I’ve said it: it’s not ready for primetime. Now they’ve got these little cameras, like the reds and whatnot. But while we were doing our movie, you check on the competition. “Well, how’s it going?” You know through the crew members, the camera assistants, “Pirates are getting three shots a day.” “Really?” Then you hear the disasters and the cameras. It’s new technology. This is the wild, wild west right now. The theater projectors are different, the camera systems are different. There’s no standardized anything right now. "

 

On Digital:

 

"Digital, no matter what people tell you, it’s bullshit. They say, “Oh, it looks just like film.” It doesn’t look like film and never will. And it’s like those people that are telling you are technicians."

 

I would dispute one claim. He basically stated that he had heard that Pirates 4 was having problems with their Red cameras but according to the DP Wolski: ""We tested ALL the digital camera's available and against film and we chose the RED MX for Pirates of the Caribbean 4. We have had no camera problems with the RED ONEs and we have had the kind of support that is above and beyond the call. We didn't know what to expect when we started with 13 RED ONE MX cameras (supplied from Panavision), but the cameras are performing flawlessly under extreme conditions and we could not be happier. Thank you to the people and the incredible support from both Panavision and RED. If we had to make the decision again we wouldn't change a thing." Not calling Bay a liar but it seems odd that the statements are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. I would probably trust Wolski more since he actually shot the film.

[Phil Rhodes]

we have had the kind of support that is above and beyond the call

Of course they have, they're Pirates of the bloody Caribbean.

That's not a challenge. What's a challenge is how they treat lower profile productions.

P

[Stuart Brereton]

I would dispute one claim. He basically stated that he had heard that Pirates 4 was having problems with their Red cameras

 

I don't think he was speaking specifically about Pirates. He used them as an example of the workrate, and then talked about there being problems with 3D rigs. It didn't read to me as if he was saying they were having problems.

 

Also, you could ask why Pirates needed "support that was above and beyond the call", if their cameras were "performing flawlessly".

 

I'm not suggesting that Wolski is lying, but equally he may not want to air his grievances (if any) in public.

[Andrew R]

Wolski posted those comments on Reduser. If he had a bad experience but did not want to broadcast his grievances, he would have said nothing.

[Stuart Brereton]

Why would Darius Wolski post on REDuser at all, unless he was asked to? And having been asked to, he relates his positive experiences. He's certainly not going to recount any technical hitches and snafus on REDuser of all places.

 

REDuser is by definition, and it's own admission, a highly partizan forum. Everything posted on there is biased and/or edited and that's fine, as long as you understand that, and treat it accordingly.

[Andrew R]

Why would Darius Wolski post on REDuser at all, unless he was asked to? And having been asked to, he relates his positive experiences. He's certainly not going to recount any technical hitches and snafus on REDuser of all places.

 

REDuser is by definition, and it's own admission, a highly partizan forum. Everything posted on there is biased and/or edited and that's fine, as long as you understand that, and treat it accordingly.

 

Well for starters, other DP's have posted as well stating positive experiences with Red.

 

John Schwartzman ASC of Seabiscuit fame said this a little bit ago:

 

"Here in Mahattan for the last 2 weeks of the Amazing Spiderman, since we first started 7 months ago with our beta-tattoo bodies a lot in the world has changed. I speak to many DP's getting ready to use the Epic, most are shooting 3D and using either 3ality or ET rigs. The 3ality rigs have worked really well for us, they have been quick and reliable by 3D standards and after the 2nd week we all fell into a routine which allows us to do 25 set ups a day.

 

2 weeks ago I color corrected a 8 minute sizzle reel at colorworks cut together by the editors, it had a little bit of everything in it and Brook and I finished out to a 4K 2D DCP, that was turned over to Rob Engel our head stereographer to be made into a 2k 3D DCP. The 4k Epic images are absolutely the highest resolution images I have ever seen, Steve Bowen the colorist, who has lots of digital experience was speechless, the images are gorgeous, dark with no noise, and full of detail. The color tracked really well to the 3D and it looks really great in 3D, I just wish 3D projection would catch up with acquisition. The 2d 4k has 4 times the resolution of the 3d image, when I have done film scans I think the difference between 2k and 4 k scans is there but it is subtle, when originating an image at 4.5k and viewing it at 4k there is nothing subtle about it, sort of like the paint job on Jared's Porsche, it gets your attention.

 

My RED experience on the Amazing Spiderman has been great and I am looking forward to using this camera to shoot some commercials this summer in 2D. 10 more days to go on first unit and then Collister shoots kanother 2 weeks of 3D plates and we are done.

 

John"

 

David Mullen ASC is also a regular contributor. I doubt that anyone forced Wolski to say what he said. Besides, he is using Epics on Riddley Scott's new sci fi flick so I think his positive review was sincere.

 

Yes, Reduser is a pro red forum. DVXuser is pro Panasonic. Arri's forum is biased to their product. I would say that this place seems like a hang out for Red bashers but I really think it is just a couple of people screaming loudly.

[Stuart Brereton]

this place seems like a hang out for Red bashers but I really think it is just a couple of people screaming loudly.

 

I'm not bashing RED, I'm just pointing out that REDuser is hardly a place where you would expect to find unbiased information. I don't see why you find that so hard to understand.

[Andrew R]

I'm not bashing RED, I'm just pointing out that REDuser is hardly a place where you would expect to find unbiased information. I don't see why you find that so hard to understand.

 

I don't understand what you are getting at. Any forum run by the company that produces the product is going to be biased. That goes for the Arri forum or any camera forum. Still, there is plenty of legitimate info on Reduser. There is also a complaint thread to post your grievances . It's not as bad as everyone makes it sound. And when someone like Mullen, Wolski or Schwartzman talk, people tend to listen. They may be fans but that does not make their opinions any less relevant. If Deakins posted on the Arri forum that he is in love with the Alexa, would you say, "well of course he said that, it is an Arri forum and thus it is biased."

[Stuart Brereton]

Ok, how many times have Schwartzman & Wolski posted? Are they regular contributors? These very talented DPs have both shot films recently using RED cameras which were in a pre-release, beta state. Therefore, it seems likely to me that both of them have been asked by RED to contribute their opinions to REDuser for PR purposes, and out of politeness, gratitude or contractual obligations they have done so. Are they pleased with the results they have? Of course. Do their comments tell the full story? No.

 

Any Production using new technology is going to run into technical hitches. When you consider that 3D rigs themselves are hugely problematic, and then add in an untried camera system there WILL be problems. This is the nature of the beast. Anyone that thinks different has obviously never worked on a film set. Of course you're never going to hear Wolski or Schwartzman complain about it on REDuser, they have manners, and even if they did, the comments would never make it onto the forum in the first place.

[Keith Walters]

That's not a challenge. What's a challenge is how they treat lower profile productions

 

Absolutely 100% exacto-mundo!

I've been there; if it's a 10 digit production you expect to get hauled out of bed in the middle of the night, on weekends, it's like being a cop.

The only positive side for me was that if somebody wanted something custom made up in a hurry, there was never any of this spending four times as long getting permission and establishing who was going to pay for it and so on, as it took to actually make the damned thing, as often as not from bits we already had lying around.

It was always just "Here it is; goodbye; I don't want to see it again; I was not here; you were not here;

(Please do not feed the bean counters, or give long-term company bench warmers any potential justifications for their existence...)

The whole rationale behind the RED cameras was supposedly to put 10-figure image quality in the hands of the little guys. In practice, I can't say I've seen too much evidence of this.

(By "evidence" I don't mean as in "giving evidence" like you do in courtroom, I mean actual evidence...)

[Francesco Bonomo]

Wow, didn't think this little thread would attract so much attention just because of one little reference to Red. I posted the quotes just because not a day goes by without hearing about this or that filmmaker raving or expressing a strong opinion about this or that camera, and usually it's because of marketing/pr purposes, including, I guess, Bay's commnents. I only thought it was ironic that one of the most successful commercial directors out there is sticking to film, considering it superior to digital acquisition, and doesn't really like 3D, at least judging from his words, that's all...If someone went by what you read online, film has been dead for at least 10 years and everyone is shooting Red. But if you're fortunate enough to be working on actual sets in the real world, the reality is somehow different and way more diverse, at least that's my opinion based on limited but still real experience. I don't own cameras, I don't work for a rental company, I have no interest in this or that brand, I'm not a fanboy or a hater of any digital camera, I have no interest in saying that one camera company is "da poop" while all the others should disappear from the planet, and that's what I really dislike about camera-centric forums

 

(p.s. to be 100% honest, I'm in love with film and will shoot on it any chance I get, but that's another story, so you could say I'm strongly celluloid-biased).

 

Wolski posted those comments on Reduser. If he had a bad experience but did not want to broadcast his grievances, he would have said nothing.

 

Actually, Wolski is not even registered on reduser and the quote was posted by JJ. On the other hand, Schwartzman is registered and posted a few times, raving about Epic on Spider-man and Red support (but also stating 35mm anamorphic film is still superior in his opinion), and was also slightly attacked by some members when he posted about the post 3d-conversion of Green Hornet.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

Didn't Nolan mention disliking 3D and digital as well?

[Stuart Brereton]

Actually, Wolski is not even registered on reduser and the quote was posted by JJ.

 

Ah, so what you're saying is that yet again someone on this forum is quoting a quote which was originally used for PR purposes on a manufacturers webforum, and presenting it as evidence to support an argument.

 

How unusual.

[Phil Rhodes]

Y'know, I thought it was my job to snipe at things like that - perhaps I've been slacking. Still - what he said!

[Chris Keth]

...when someone like Mullen, Wolski or Schwartzman talk, people tend to listen.

 

No, people tend to kiss-ass and take their opinions as solid gold fact.

[John Sprung]

No, people tend to kiss-ass and take their opinions as solid gold fact.

 

Maybe Wolski or Schwartzman, but Mullen is one of us..... ;-)

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[K Borowski]

Mullen is one of whose "us?"

 

 

 

Honestly, I don't know how David is not insulted by people talking about "what a great camera he used and how it made everything look great." HE is the one making his footage (inchang, biteage) look good or bad, not any camera, system, lens etc.

 

Gels, diffusion, lighting, filtration, ISO speed, processing (chemical, electronic), it is HIM controlling these variables in an aesthetic and artistically pleasing way, not some algorhythm or a geek in a labcoat with an eyedropper in Rochester or Yokohama Mountain in Japan.

[John Sprung]

Mullen is one of whose "us?"

 

Our "us" here on this forum -- 14,298 posts as of the moment, one of the most if not the most, active members. And a good guy to talk with in person if you run into him at a trade show or whatever.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[John David Miller]

Wolski was not lying about little/no hang ups using the Reds on P4. Bay is wrong about only getting 3 shots a day. P4 moved along at a fast pace.

 

Keep in mind that the Alexa was not available when P4 was starting. Only a few Alexas where out for use at the time P4 started and I believe it was Bob Richardson who had them.