Premium Member Robert Ditto Posted June 14, 2011 Premium Member Share Posted June 14, 2011 Hello all! Can someone tell me the differences between the WM and MM take up motors for.the Bolex 400ft Mags and which would be better to use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Louis Seguin Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Hello all! Can someone tell me the differences between the WM and MM take up motors for.the Bolex 400ft Mags and which would be better to use? The MM motor is the earlier design and was designed to be used with the MST motor which ran only at 24fps or 25fps. When used on the EBM Electric or with the ESM motors at 50fps, it can be a bit sluggish. The WM motor was introduced to supplement the newer H16 EL cameras which has a whole range of speeds. It has 4 different torque settings: 10-12fps, 18-25fps+Sync, 32-40fps, 50fps. A lot of older MM motors have developed over time a annoying squealing noise that is often impossible to eliminate. They both run off the same 12VDC supply as the camera but the power input connections are different on the MM and the WM. Cheers, Jean-Louis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Elardo Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 The MM motor is a constant speed motor made to take up film while the camera is running the standard 24 fps. The problem is that you must be careful when shooting for slow motion, or fast motion since the MM motor is not adjustable to compensate for film being run through the gate at faster/slower rates (filling the camera chamber with film or over tensioning the film exiting the lower sprocket). The WM motor, however, is designed specifically to address this problem. It has a speed adjustment knob that can be used to match the speed of the main motor so that film is being taken up into the 400' magazine at the same rate as it's being fed through the gate. The WM motor is definitely harder to find and much more expensive than the standard, common MM motor. Hope this helps- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Robert Ditto Posted June 14, 2011 Author Premium Member Share Posted June 14, 2011 Hey thanks guys! Is there an adapter for the EBM or will I need to do some custom working to use the WM motor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Louis Seguin Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Hey thanks guys! Is there an adapter for the EBM or will I need to do some custom working to use the WM motor? There are no off-the-shelf adapters that I know of. A custom adapter could be made or else modify the motor cable or the camera. Cheers, Jean-Louis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Millar Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 A lot of older MM motors have developed over time a annoying squealing noise that is often impossible to eliminate. Cheers, Jean-Louis Yeh! What is that damn noise ? I have three, one does it - one is for parts and I've opened it up on occasion but I'm not too keen on doing it on the noisy one - they're not made for easy access huh It cant be impossible though right ?? Its just well, stuff and stuff can be made to do and not do things right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Louis Seguin Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 (edited) Yeh! What is that damn noise ? I have three, one does it - one is for parts and I've opened it up on occasion but I'm not too keen on doing it on the noisy one - they're not made for easy access huh It cant be impossible though right ?? Its just well, stuff and stuff can be made to do and not do things right ? Hi Chris, As you know, inside the MM, there are two miniature Maxon gearhead motors. I've tried a number of times to apply fine oil in strategic areas of the motor shaft and gear-train inside the motor itself and sometimes it would seem to work then after a while the noise came back and sometimes the noise could not be eliminated at all. As an experiment, I once dunked the whole motor in an ultrasonic cleaner. The noise seemed to disappear for a while then returned. I think the noise is from inside the little motors themselves. If an identical new little motor could still be found at a reasonable price, I'd just replaced them with new ones but the cost would probably make it economical. To be honest, I don't think there are a lot of people anymore using 400 foot mags on the Bolex, at least not amongst the people I deal with. Cheers, Jean-Louis Edited June 15, 2011 by Jean-Louis Seguin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Millar Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Hi Chris, As you know, inside the MM, there are two miniature Maxon gearhead motors. I've tried a number of times to apply fine oil in strategic areas of the motor shaft and gear-train inside the motor itself and sometimes it would seem to work then after a while the noise came back and sometimes the noise could not be eliminated at all. Yup, My parts version is actually a worker, just that one of those motors no longer works - at slower speeds the single motor can keep up, especially if you give it a manual hand between takes... But potentially inside those things huh the one that wasn't working had an aborted attempt at a fix but they are pretty solidly compacted units, the issue was in the commutation, and I was way too rough in my approach for that fiddly little set up in there... melted a hole in the clear plastic for access - oh dear ! The 'brushes' or maybe just what is left of them are just wire... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Louis Seguin Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Yup, My parts version is actually a worker, just that one of those motors no longer works - at slower speeds the single motor can keep up, especially if you give it a manual hand between takes... But potentially inside those things huh the one that wasn't working had an aborted attempt at a fix but they are pretty solidly compacted units, the issue was in the commutation, and I was way too rough in my approach for that fiddly little set up in there... melted a hole in the clear plastic for access - oh dear ! The 'brushes' or maybe just what is left of them are just wire... Correction. I made a boo-boo. The motors are probably not Maxon as they are manufactured in Germany as the complete MM unit is also. Maxon is Swiss company and the motors inside the EBM and EL are Maxon. Cheers, Jean_louis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Elsaesser Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 When used on the EBM Electric or with the ESM motors at 50fps, it can be a bit sluggish. Hey there Jean-Louis Seguin, I'm just wondering what you mean when you say the mm motor is a bit sluggish when run at 50 fps. Is it still workable, or does it totally throw off the light reading and make the film jump around. I'm working on a shot that's gonna be about 3 minutes long and we were hoping to shoot it at 50 fps with the mm take up motor. It doesn't have to be sound synch but it would be nice it the light was exposed evenly across the shot. What do you think? What about running the camera at 40fps.... you think that would make a difference? cheers, carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Louis Seguin Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 In your case, the best way to know for sure is to thread a full 400 foot of dummy film and run it through from beginning to end at 50fps with stops occasionally. You can run it with the doors off to see the whole process. Check the take-up reel if it's tightly wound. Best case scenario: it will be a little loose. Worst case: the film will fail to take up properly and pack up in the film chamber. You may have to manually inch the take up reel snugly between each take to be sure. It will in no way affect exposure but film that is loose in the chamber will be susceptible to scratching. Jean-Louis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve waschka Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 squealing noise: is inside, inside, and then inside the little motor bearing areas. I fixed my last one over a year ago. I do remember that once you take the brush housing off the back and the gear train off the front of the little motor itself... the wound core is still inside more baffles that i dare not remove. Many many times i oiled further out on the assembly thinking " i got it this time".....nope. Finally just completely over it I packed the little motors front internal gearing with high quality clear machine grease. Just kept pushing it in. Noise never came back. Motor didnt blow up. If I remember correctly the noise was not fixed by anything I did in the back of the brush assembly And once you break that seal you have to carefully readjust the timing of the brushes or the motors will fight eachother during use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Millar Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 I know those brushes! If I recall that part took some partial destruction to get into and I never got it back again... I had three motors (i.e. six little motors) so it was more out of interest - I got one working out of non-noisy parts, a really noisy one, and a dead one. Turns out one of six was actually missing. The motor had been running on just one all that time, no wonder it couldn't handle a full reel. Typical eBay seller for you 'one owner since purchasing', replied back saying he was not aware of any issues etc... Yeh, right whatever ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Maddocks Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 Hi all, Can anyone confirm to me what happens to the MM motor when running the camera with a 25 fps MST motor? Should it also run at 25fps or is it set to 24fps and won’t run any faster than that? Reason I ask is I was running some gash through the 400ft mag, the MST motor was running the camera but the take up spool wasn’t running fast enough it seems and my loops were growing, which would have eventually caused a film jam. Any ideas? My theory is that the MM motor was stuck running at 24 fps whilst the MST motor was running at 25fps… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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