Newcomer in this outback.... in need of some help

Wouter Bakker · November 8, 2011

Hello all,

Let me first introduce myself. My name is Wouter Bakker, I'm 17 years old and I'm photographer, if you want to know more about me and or my photography please send me a message and i'll be happy to reply.

Now to the point.

I recently got a Cine Kodak K100 Turret filmcamera. I have absolutely no knowledge about filmcamera's, only photocamera's, but I really want to try and shoot a film with this Kodak to experience shooting film with such an old camera and to see if it still is fully functional.

What kind of film/reel/tape do i need for this Kodak and where can i buy it? Also where do they (still) procces this film for me?

I hope some(one) can help me,

Best,

Wouter

Charles MacDonald · November 8, 2011

I recently got a Cine Kodak K100 Turret filmcamera. I have absolutely no knowledge about filmcamera's, only photocamera's, but I really want to try and shoot a film with this Kodak to experience shooting film with such an old camera and to see if it still is fully functional.

What kind of film/reel/tape do i need for this Kodak and where can i buy it? Also where do they (still) procces this film for me?

HI there, welcome to the board. Sometimes having your location can help in recommending resources.

The Old Cine Kodak units are still popular with film students, and hobby users. They all will take a standard 100ft roll of Double perforated film, many will also take the more common (these days) single perforated film.

Do you also have a projector, or would you be wanting to view the finished film on a computer or TV set?

Are you familiar with Film processing techniques, so that we can explain the lab processes.

So yes, Film and processing are still available, and in fact are rather mainstream. depending on your location there are two or three Film labs that are in the advertisments at the right of the screen that would love your processing business. The trick is to figure out what questions we can answer for you. The search function of this board will bring up a LOT of information.

The answer if you want a quick film to show on your projector might be some Tri-x reversal film, or ekatachrome 100D - if you are more interested in aa video output, or live near Toronto, all the profesional COlour Negative films are fair game, (but first we have to figure out if your camera can take single perf film.)

Wouter Bakker · November 8, 2011

HI there, welcome to the board. Sometimes having your location can help in recommending resources.

The Old Cine Kodak units are still popular with film students, and hobby users. They all will take a standard 100ft roll of Double perforated film, many will also take the more common (these days) single perforated film.

Do you also have a projector, or would you be wanting to view the finished film on a computer or TV set?

Are you familiar with Film processing techniques, so that we can explain the lab processes.

So yes, Film and processing are still available, and in fact are rather mainstream. depending on your location there are two or three Film labs that are in the advertisments at the right of the screen that would love your processing business. The trick is to figure out what questions we can answer for you. The search function of this board will bring up a LOT of information.

The answer if you want a quick film to show on your projector might be some Tri-x reversal film, or ekatachrome 100D - if you are more interested in aa video output, or live near Toronto, all the profesional COlour Negative films are fair game, (but first we have to figure out if your camera can take single perf film.)

I live in The Netherlands (also known as "Holland"). I would want to view the finished film on computer and I'm not familiar with film processing techniques... i hope this isn't a big problem. In the instruction manual it says "The camera was designed to use either single- or doubleperforated 16mm film." like you said, further i don't know how to find out if my camera takes singleperforated film

Wouter Bakker · November 8, 2011

I live in The Netherlands (also known as "Holland"). I would want to view the finished film on computer and I'm not familiar with film processing techniques... i hope this isn't a big problem. In the instruction manual it says "The camera was designed to use either single- or doubleperforated 16mm film." like you said, further i don't know how to find out if my camera takes singleperforated film

My father is capeble of proccesing the film, now I guess i need some practice with a Digitel camera to not waste film and whenn í have the basiscs of filming ill try shooting with the Kodak. I just need to know what kind of film i need to buy.

Philip Nasadowski · November 8, 2011

It all depends on if you need single or double perf film. Double perf has holes on both sides of the film (like 35mm still camera film). Single perf has them down one side only. Look at the camera's sprockets - you'll see if they're designed for double or single.

Either way, Kodak Tri-X (7266?) is a great way to start. It's a reversal, so what you shoot is what you'll project, and it's cheap and easy to find (ok, admittingly, I'm near NY City. It's easy to find here...)

I like to project reversal - maybe you can find a projector at school to borrow for a period to see your results (if you're in high school or college you'll likely be able to)? It's also cheaper / less headache / faster than getting a telecine of the film.

You'll need an exposure meter, and you'll have to set the F stop on the camera. Test with a roll or two first and you'll get the feel of it fast.

And remember to HAVE FUN! :)

Jason Hinkle RIP · November 8, 2011

Here is another discussion with possibly some useful information about that camera:

http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=44889

If your camera supports single-perf film the just go with that - it's the most common.

The basic process goes something like this (for most of us who are not processing our own film)

1. Buy film (you have choices based on the type of light you will be using, so it helps to read up about film ISO)

2. Shoot film

3. Send exposed film to lab to be developed

4. Send developed negatives to production house for "telecine" (which is transfer to digital - this is what most people do)

The easiest thing to do is find a lab that will do both steps #3 and #4 for you, in which case all you do is shoot your film, send it to the lab along with a hard drive and they will send you back your developed negatives along with the footage digitally scanned onto your hard drive. In some case those places will also sell you the film so you can really get everything from one shop.

There is a whole world of options and it can seem quite complicated and expensive, but generally people at labs are very helpful and if you just tell them you are learning to shoot film they will usually be glad to help and tell you what you should order.

Does your father have access to 16mm film processing equipment? If he does then that can save you some money on step #3, however if you are thinking that you can use a still photography lab to process your movie film, that generally doesn't work. Also the actual processing is the cheapest step compared to the telecine costs.

Charles MacDonald · November 9, 2011

You are proably in luck if the manual indicates that the camera can take single or Double perf film. you can relax about that point. If you look inside the camera you will probably see a sprocket wheel or two. They should have one row of teeth on the edge that is farthest from the camera opening.

Some cameras have two rows of teeth on the sprokets and so need two sets of perforations on the film to go into. Single perf film will not work in a camera that needs double perf, but your manual indicates that is not an issue. The old advice would be to just use double perf and avoid the issue, but Double perf is not as common to buy these days.

Europe is almost a hotbed of Film activity, so you will find a lot of almost "local" suppliers, mostly in Germany. for example http://www.wittner-cinetec.com/

You may also find that the Foma R-100 16mm reversal film is more available than the Kodak brand there.

Dom Jaeger · November 9, 2011

Hi Wouter,

Other people have given you good advice about film stocks, processing and such, I thought I might tell you a bit more about the camera itself.

The K100 was the last high quality cine camera Kodak manufactured, in a royal lineage that stretches back to the very first 16mm camera ever made, the Cine-Kodak (model A) from 1923. The K100 came out in 1956, by which time sound on film was available, utilising the space where the second row of perforations used to be, so all K100s will have single perf sprocket rollers and be able to use either single or double perf film.

It takes 100 ft rolls of 16mm film, on daylight spools. The spools are designed so you can load the camera in low light without fogging the film, but if you can get hold of some old or exposed film it's good to practice loading the camera so you are familiar with how it threads.

The viewfinder looks through the smaller viewing lenses on the turret (which rotate into position as you rotate the taking lens in front of the film), so it's not reflex. This means that the viewfinder will show you the the field of view, but not whether it's in focus. So you need to measure or estimate the distance to your subject and set the lens focus scale correspondingly. It's more critical at closer distances and wider apertures. It's worth checking that the viewing lens matches the taking lens, sometimes they can get swapped around!

You also need to set the lens aperture by using a light meter, or if you don't have a meter you can use a digital still camera set to the same ASA or ISO as your film stock. The shutter speed is roughly twice a fraction of the frame rate, so if you're shooting at 24 fps calculate for 1/50 sec, at 16 fps it's 1/35 sec and so on. The spring motor runs for a long time, longer than most other wind-up cameras including Bolexes, but it's still worth remembering to give it a wind before each take. Nothing worse than the spring running out in the middle of a perfect moment.

It takes a little more preparation than you may be used to using more modern cameras, but the results will be worth it. It's a really nice camera, I hope you have fun using it.

Phil Rhodes · November 9, 2011

Nobody seems to be talking about costs here, which I suspect may be a bit of a shock if you really haven't done this before. It is often difficult to get a real idea of costs for actual film-based production, because it's often a lot of money and people seem to be worried about scaring off potential trade.

However, One place in London lists 16mm film stock at £87 for a 400ft roll, plus 20% VAT. This is before you've had it processed, which will cost about another half to two thirds of what the roll cost to buy. Then you have to have it transferred to a digital format at a telecine facility. Even assuming you spend less than an hour doing it, will cost you at least several hundred units of whatever currency you have, even for a low quality, standard-definition picture that will probably look considerably worse than a basic DV camera.

I'll be shouted at because this is an unpopular fact, but it is a fact - film is hideously, cripplingly expensive, and making it look seriously good is even more expensive. I tend to work on the basis of approximately a pound/euro/dollar per second and you won't be far wrong. Assuming on an average day of a somewhat-serious production you would shoot between 40 and 60 minutes of raw stock, it will cost you literally thousands.

This is why anyone other than Hollywood, who appear to have infinite money, is desperately attempting to find an acceptable alternative to film. Actually getting film to look its best is much more expensive than I've outlined here and requires a lot of crew and equipment, plus skill you probably don't have at the tender age of 17.

You can buy a Canon 550D for what it'll cost you to shoot one roll of film - personally I'd do that, and learn some more. Sorry if this all seems unreasonably gloomy, but sticker shock is a terrible thing.

P

Dom Jaeger · November 9, 2011

Yes, film can be expensive and low quality transfers can look pretty bad. I also agree that practicing on digital cameras can be a much cheaper way of learning the basics.

But I would argue that the native quality of film in terms of colour space, latitude and movement capture still surpasses all but the highest quality digital cameras, and if you have an artistic sensibility that appreciates random brush strokes above ordered pixels, film grain will always be more beautiful.

There's also the discipline that 'precious' film engenders, the process (which any artist knows is half the art) and the simple joy of using a precision, mechanical device that purrs in your hands - all of which should not be underestimated, however much the dull voices of mass consumer bean counting modernity might protest.

But yes, it's a road less travelled these days.